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Critique My Salamanders

 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:49 am 
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In reading through old threads in EA and the Marine Development forums, I'm picking up lots of little bits of useful information, which was already pushing me towards making use of scouts, so consider myself now sold. My biggest problem is I can't fit everything I want into 6k. I do find it kind of annoying that it does appear that "fluffy" lists aren't always effective, but I'm sure I'll find a balance.

I'm only going to have one primary opponent (playing Biel Tan) although I'm currently trying to talk another friend (traditionally a Tau fan) into getting into EA, so one of the ways I plan to keep things interesting is to be able to vary the list from game to game. I'm certainly not going to lock myself into 6,000 points of minis and that's that.

I also think I've got a fairly solid handle on the rules, having read them pretty thoroughly, along with the FAQ, so no concerns there. They're complex enough that some questions will most likely arise during play, but it also seems like most questions have clear answers somewhere -- on the forums here, if not easily found in the rules or FAQ.

A question on titans, since you bring up the fact the termies with landraiders have the same cost as a Warlord:

Back in the day, playing SM2, I found Warlords were a horrible point sink that couldn't stand up to the volume of incoming fire in a large game (mainly, Eldar super-heavies popping up from across the table). Warhounds, on the other hand, were quite effective. The general impression I've got via the forums here, and the development discussion in the Epic-UK Marine List, is that seems to still be more-or-less the case in EA. Is my impression accurate? In any case, I have a nice array of Vanguard warstalkers, so I can try various combinations for myself at no further financial outlay.


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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:58 am 
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Ok, made some changes. Dropped a tactical formation, downgraded the warhound pack to a single warhound, added some scouts, and used the left over points to reinforce some other formations. This is actually looking much closer to what I originally envisaged, but with a lot more activations than my first run at it.

Since I'm not using drop pods, I could drop the assault cruiser for another Thunderbolt squadron, but that's the sort of thing I'll probably do on a game-to-game basis to change things up.

LINE DETACHMENTS
Devastators [525]
+ Salamander Devs
+ Hunter
+ Landraider
+ Las Razorback

Devastators [400]
+ Missile/Las Dreadnought
+ Melta/PF Dreadnought
+ Chaplain
(Thunderhawk)

Terminators [375]
+ Chaplain
(Thunderhawk)

Terminators [575]
+ Landraiders (2 Redeemer, 2 Std)

Tactical [550]
+ Salamander Tacticals
+ Las Razorback
+ Supreme Commander
+ Hunter

Tactial [425]
+ Hunter
+ Predator Incinerator
+ HB Razorback

Whirlwind [275]

Predators [325]
(3 Las, 1 Autocannon)
+ Hunter

Predators [325]
(3 Las, 1 Autocannon)
+ Hunter

Vindicator [300]
+ Landraider

SUPPORT/RESTRICTED
Warhound [275]

Warhound [275]

Fast Attack [200]
(Land Speeders)

Strike Cruiser [200]

Thunderhawk [200]

Thunderhawk [200]

Thunderbolt [175]

Scouts [195]
+ 2 Sniper
+ Las Razorback

Scouts [205]
+ 3 Sniper
+ HB Razorback


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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:28 am 
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Keep in mind that just about none of the advice on here, or the EUK lists, are balanced or specific for 6k. 6k is an unusual (though fun) scale to play at. Warlords are not good value for points at 3k and rarely taken at 3k for marines in the UK (compared to, say, an eldar warlock at 3k, which is very viable!). Warlord marines become more viable at higher points. Could you spend the points in a better way than a warlord at 6k? possibly. Is a warlord more use than LR termies at 6k? very probably.
Not trying to put you off 6k, epic mega battle are amazing as you can bring so many toys that arn't efficient at 3k, but the idea of optimisations from traditional tournament play starts to break down.


One thing to note, though i don't think it is a problem with you list, is that are the tournament meta 3/4k optimised list end of play, marines can be a hard counter to eldar. Epic isn't too rock-papper-scissors in general, but tournament meta marines can wipe out tournament meta eldar. Worth keeping ianeye on to make sure it's fun for all players if main opponent is eldar.

Scouts don't need sniper, though again at 6k that may be more viable.

Quote:
I do find it kind of annoying that it does appear that "fluffy" lists aren't always effective

A common response to looking at EA marines for the first time, but it depends on which edition your idea of marine fluff comes from (40k 28mm marines often arnt fluffy either, they just end up being considered the 'norm'.).
EA marines are an elite strike force/storm troop army, specialising in air/orbital attack. They will almost always be outnumbered, so need to make use of the most viable tools for any job and do not excel at the use of heavy ground armour vs other forces. Marines can be played as a ground pounder, rhino rush with land raiders list (and its perfectly viable way to learn the game), but neither codex or salamander lists in epic are really made for that (salamanders better at it with the tactical upgrades). It's not the land raiders or huge numbers of tacticals are bad in isolation. As an army, Marines do best when able to pick their fights and strike at core target, rather than lining up a line of bolter brothers along the table. I wouldn't say this is un-fluffy, but there are certainly different views of what marines 'should be' and EA marines match some of those very strongly, but really diverge from others.

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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:55 am 
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Thanks for all your thoughts. I will, of course, report back on how things go once some actual battles start happening. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:14 pm 
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Apocolocyntosis wrote:
Agreed with Abetillo – what you have is certainly playable to get a hang of things for some initial games


No, no, that was not my point. I was talking about adapting what he has to him, not going to the most effective choices, more like that does not matter, if the meta they play is different.

Also he did not asked to go fully competitive, as afar as i know.

Sable Wyvern wrote:
I do find it kind of annoying that it does appear that "fluffy" lists aren't always effective, but I'm sure I'll find a balance..


Is is not that they aren't effective, is that if you go full min-maxing they aren't the best option ever. Save Terminators on Land Raiders, those are only good for an sturdy BTS.. As long as you keep some basic guides (activations, balance in assault vs shooting, AA, and speed) almost every option is good. Also, what Apocolocyntosis answered to you.

Sable Wyvern wrote:
A question on titans, since you bring up the fact the termies with landraiders have the same cost as a Warlord:

Back in the day, playing SM2, I found Warlords were a horrible point sink that couldn't stand up to the volume of incoming fire in a large game (mainly, Eldar super-heavies popping up from across the table). Warhounds, on the other hand, were quite effective. The general impression I've got via the forums here, and the development discussion in the Epic-UK Marine List, is that seems to still be more-or-less the case in EA. Is my impression accurate? In any case, I have a nice array of Vanguard warstalkers, so I can try various combinations for myself at no further financial outlay.


Right now Terminators with Land Raiders are at 650 in EpicUK, 600 in NetEA, a Reaver 650 and a Warlord 850.

Warlords are good as they give you an almost impossible to destroy BTS, but the rest of the list needs to be balanced more so the rest of the formations do not become an obvious target. Usually do not kill as much as their points but are a good threat.

Reavers area more popular because they are faster and can assault and grab objectives easier, but are a lot more achiveable objective for the enemy, so most players will try to destroy it.

Warhounds are a pain in the ass for the enemy if they can be used well. If not they disappear fast.

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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:14 am 
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New question.

As best I can tell, planetfalling Thunderhawks is of questionable utility -- there are some fringe cases where you might pull off something interesting, but unless the enemy has overwhelming air defence, it's probably not worthwhile. This being the case, and assuming I'm not dropping any formations in drop pods, is a strike cruiser worth the points for what becomes a single large barrage that is hopefully plotted well?


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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:58 pm 
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Correct, planetfall thawk is of fringe use – although, eldar with a huge amount of flack is one of the cases where it has utility.
Second part of the question depends a fair bit on the game points: 3k game with no pods – probably skip the spaceship as marines. At 6k points, there will be so much on the table that it should be hard not to miss with the barrage, so being able to plot well is less of a problem.

Reliance on plotting is a personal thing, some people swear they never hit and it's a waste of points, I say with the marine 2 template barrage it's really hard not to hit as you cover such a large area. (or they set up in such a skewed way you do miss, but they also ruined their deployment: win/win). It is also worth considering the psychological impact of having a barrage coming in at an unknown location, can make the opponent second guess their own game plans.

Keep in mind with marines, the deathwind attacks from the drop pods are part of the power of the strikecruiser, so you're right you are lossing a fair bit of utility without a pod formation, but at the same time 6k gives you an unusually target dense environment to hit.

and just to make things confusion: if i was vs AA heavy eldar and i didn't have pod formations to hit their AA, i'd be more inclined to plantefall a thawk.

At list building stage with marines you are not committed to a transport type. If you have strike cruiser, you could choose to pod in your devs+dreads, but you could instead choose to thawk them in, or start them off on the ground, depending on the opponent.

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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:14 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback. I'm also starting to realise that I have a lot options for mixing the list up from game to game to help keep things fresh.


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