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I could use some help with Orks
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=95&t=20136		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Daklathen [ Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:  I could use some help with Orks
Hi all, new member here. I was pointed this way from warseer.

Alrighty, so, Epic has been on my plate of things to try and I finally have that chance. I picked up the following from eBay and I am now trying to throw together an army list. I think I understand the jist of army building for Orks, but I need some clarification on the figures. Here is what I have (counted in individual figures, not units):

2 stompas
6 Cyboars (running as Warbikers)
6 warbikers
2 Shokk Attack Gunz
18 wagon chassis
10 Stormboys
22 Nobs (powerclaw and a banner on their back)
10 Kommandos
8 boys with what looks like a giant Auto-cannon on their sholder, not to be confused with a big shoota
30 Grots
60 Ork Boys (including 8 big shootas)
2 warlords (double banners, chainsword and pistol)
2 standard bearers
6 boys with misc. tools
2 boys with a staff and a giant flat-top hairdo (these are next to the boys with tools).
3 Scorchas
4 Wartraks (perhaps Big Gunz?)
3 Lemann Russ (Using for Gunwagons?)

I need help identifying the auto-cannon wielding boyz, the tool boyz and the weird 'do boyz. I also cannot find the rules for Wartraks or Cyboars. Oh, the chassis didn't come with weapon turrets, which peeved me a little bit, but I have enough plasticard and skill to make whatever conversions I might need for the tanks.

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Next I need to figure out how all this fits in a warband, assume using the minimum number of models per tray to maximize points possible.

My best guess would be a big warband:
Big Warband - 350
4x Nobs
-Warlord
12x Orc Boys
6x Grots

+ 2x Stormboys - 50
+ 2x Kommandos - 50
+ 2x Stompas - 150
+ 6x Warbikes - 150
+ 1x Skorchas - 25
+ 6x Battlewagons - 210
+ 12x Gun/Flak Wagons - 420
+ 1x Nobs - 35
etc.

Question about bases: What is better: rectangular or square bases? Most epic armies I see use the long and thin bases, is there really a big difference in playability or advantage?

Help is greatly appreciated, especially since my friend and I are looking at getting a game in this or the following weekend. (Squats or Nids VS Orks)
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I could use some help with Orks
The Autocannon boyz are Lootas, no rules right now, but they can be used as heavy weapons in boyz units, or as Big Gunz. The tool boyz are Meks; again no rules, but look good on a Nobz stand as a command stand. Staff and 'do are Wierdboyz, they have rules for Savage Orks (Swordwind) but are again good for Command Stands in Gazkull's Warhorde. The boyz with Syringes and those with Grabba Stiks are Painboyz and Pigdoks, and are again best in command stands, though variant lists (Savage Orks and SPeed Freeks) may use them, not sure. Wartraks are subsumed into the buggy catagory, and Boarboyz are again used in the Savage ork list, but are commonly used as Snakebite Warbikers.

In terms of bases, there is not a real difference. The strip bases are the ones that GW currently sells, so most armies built in the last few years are strip based. the square bases were sold through SM2 IIRC, so older armies are usually based on the square bases. Many use other types of base as well, Litko being common, and small coins and washers are also used. as long as each dimension is >5mm and <40mm, and at least one dimension is >20mm, the base is legal. At least three infantry to the base at a minimum.
Author:  lookatmybiglongname [ Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I could use some help with Orks
You can stick the mekboyz near or on any soopa-guns/zzap guns upgrades (vehicle or not) to be characterful and denote which are which. Put characters in list specific units as that gives them more flexibility, and then use 'counts as' if using them in other lists. So you could construct the weirdboyz as if a feral ork unit, and then just count it as a normal boyz unit or whatever in a normal list. Though in the old days characters just went on the boss stand to denote it.

I've heard the nids are not a good army to play with or against if you are just getting started. Squats are probably better in that case.
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I could use some help with Orks
'Nids break all the rules. They really aren't a good army to learn the basics with or against, because they take the book of basic play concepts and spew acid on the entire first half. I'd agree with biglongname that Squats are a better choice to play against for starters.
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I could use some help with Orks
Daklathen wrote:
Next I need to figure out how all this fits in a warband, assume using the minimum number of models per tray to maximize points possible.

I'm not sure I understand your goal here. Do you mean mounting the infantry with the minimum number per base in order to create as many units out of them as possible? If so, traditional mounting is 5 per base. Anything from 3-7 is legal. For bikes and other mounted units, 3 is traditional; 2-4 is legal.

Quote:
My best guess would be a big warband:
Big Warband - 350
4x Nobs
-Warlord
12x Orc Boys
6x Grots

This would be 4/12/4.

Quote:
+ 1x Skorchas - 25

You have 3 minis listed, so you have 3 units available. Skorchas are light vehicles, so they are one per unit.

Quote:
4 Wartraks (perhaps Big Gunz?)

Wartraks would count as warbuggies. As with Skorchas, they are light vehicles, so one per unit.

Quote:
8 boys with what looks like a giant Auto-cannon on their sholder, not to be confused with a big shoota ... 8 big shootas

As noted, you can either mix these in with Boyz for variety, or you can group them together into units and have them count as Big Gunz.

Quote:
2 Shokk Attack Gunz

I've grouped Shokk Attacks on a single base to have them count as a Big Gunz unit with Oddboy upgrade.

Quote:
18 wagon chassis
3 Lemann Russ (Using for Gunwagons?)

You can definitely use looted Russ as Gunwagons. For reference, the optimal configuration for Blitz Brigades is often referred to as the "Zzap Brigade" and consists of 2 Flakwagons, 1 Gunwagon, 1 Zzapwagon (Gunwagon + Oddboy - and some people prefer Soopaguns to Zzaps). There's explanation in the Strategy and Tactics forum in the pinned Ork strategy thread. If you're adding turrets to the chassis, you should probably keep that in mind.

You'll also want to save some for Battlewagonz if you want to have a mechanized Warband.

Quote:
Question about bases: What is better: rectangular or square bases? Most epic armies I see use the long and thin bases, is there really a big difference in playability or advantage?

Longer has some small advantages, but it's so minor it rarely shows up in play.

Quote:
Help is greatly appreciated, especially since my friend and I are looking at getting a game in this or the following weekend. (Squats or Nids VS Orks)

I'd recommend Squats or, even better, IG for starter games.

===

My recommendation for turning that into an army, assuming you have enough bitz to assign the wagon chassis as you like, would be something like this:

Warband + 4 Battlewagonz + Flakwagon - 375 points
Everything has 30cm range. There's some spare transport capacity, so you should be able to stay mounted even after taking vehicle casualties. If you had spare points/minis, you could make that 3 Battlewagonz + 3 Flakwagonz instead (410 points).

Warband - 200 points
Cheap garrison. You could bulk it up with Stompas or turn it into a Warband/Gunzmob. Both walker warbands and gunzmob warbands are discussed in the strategy thread. Also, if you scrounge up a couple spare Boyz models, you have the Grotz to make this +2 Boyz/Grotz.

Kult of Speed - 200 points
3 Skorchs, 3-4 Bikes, 1-2 Buggies. This an all-rounder KoS. It's generally considered less optimal than a specialty KoS, but has the advantage of flexibility.

Gunzmob + Oddboy - 175 points.
As noted, this could be folded into the Warband, above. The advantage would be durability, at the expense of flexibility.

2x Zzap Brigades, as above - 200 points each.

That's ~1300 points, which is pretty good for starter games, and it's a decent cross-section of the Ork list. A few KoS models (so you can split into 2 specialty mobz), some fightabommas and some other formation of your choice (walkers for a walker warband, a few gunz for a larger Gunzmob, Stormboyz mob, A Landa to air assault with the Warband, etc.) would hit 2000+ points and be well-rounded.
Author:  Dave [ Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I could use some help with Orks
If this is your first couple of games, I'd recommend trying the training scenarios as they're presented in the rulebook. They really help you learn the game if you don't have someone around to walk you through it. They take you through the core rules, add special rules, flyers and WEs sequentially in an order that makes a lot of sense.

I have the old marine counters PDF from the SG site, you can print those out and you got your units. PM me if you'd like me to e-mail it to you.
Author:  Daklathen [ Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I could use some help with Orks
Wow, thanks so much for the help! So, I have based my boyz and here is what I officially have (measured in stands, obviously):
4x Character stands (2 with warlord, 2 with Shock Attack Gun)
6x Nobs
18x boyz
10x Grots
6x bikes
4x buggies
3x skorchas
25x wagon chassis
3x LR Chassis
3x Gun Wagons (converted from wagon chassis)
9x Stompas
2x Mega Gargants
1x Gunfortress
9x Fighta Bombas

So my list would look something like this:

Warband +3 Battlewagons +2 Flakwagons +3 Stormboys +3 Stompas - 675

Warband +3 Battlewagons +2 Gunwagons +3 Kommandos +3 Stompas - 675

Warband +3 Battlewagons +2 Flakwagons - 375

Kult of Speed (4 buggies, 1 Skorcha, 3 Warbikerz) +2 Skorchas +3 Warbikers - 325

Big Blitz Brigade (4 Flakwagons 4 Gunwagons) +1 Oddboy +1 Gunfortress - 435

Mekboy Stompa Mob +4 Flakwagons - 365

Fighta Sqwadron - 150

Fighta Sqwadron - 150

Fighta Sqwadron - 150

Great Gargant - 850

Great Gargant - 850

Totals out at 5k points. I know it's ambitious, but I like to go big or go home.
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I could use some help with Orks
Caklathen: I think you still have some adjustments to make.

Daklathen wrote:
Warband +3 Battlewagons +2 Flakwagons +3 Stormboys +3 Stompas - 675
Warband +3 Battlewagons +2 Gunwagons +3 Kommandos +3 Stompas - 675

You don't want to mix Stompas in with wagon-mounted mobz. The wagonz are fast, but the Stompas are 15cm move. Same for the Kommandos, as you don't have enough transport capacity to carry them. I'd say either split this into a mechanized warband and a walker warband, or 2 Mech warbands and a big Stompa mob. (And it's not like you have to decide up front - the same minis can be organized either way from game to game.)

Quote:
Kult of Speed (4 buggies, 1 Skorcha, 3 Warbikerz) +2 Skorchas +3 Warbikers - 325

For another 25 points, you can get a Big KoS and have 16 units instead of 13. It's definitely worth it. Drop 25 points somewhere and take advantage of the size discount. I'm sure you can scrounge up a few models on the cheap to fill in.

Quote:
Big Blitz Brigade (4 Flakwagons 4 Gunwagons) +1 Oddboy +1 Gunfortress - 435

Personally, I like this idea, but I'm sure many people would disagree. Don't put the Oddboy on the Gunfort. Put it on a Gunwagon. A war engine can be targeted by an opponent and "sniped." It will usually be easier to kill one fortress than to take down enough wagonz to get to the Oddboy. Also, for the difference in firepower, the Oddboy is ALWAYS worth it. Since it's a Big formation, take 2.

Quote:
Mekboy Stompa Mob +4 Flakwagons - 365

If you add more than one Flakwagon, that will disqualify the formation from being able to garrison. Stompas are pretty slow, so being able to deploy forward is a substantial advantage. The only role this would be good at in this configuration would be a "blitz guard" to park on top of your Blitz objective.

Quote:
Fighta Sqwadron - 150
Fighta Sqwadron - 150
Fighta Sqwadron - 150

Generally, people consider it a better strategy to cluster FBs. Having lots of them in a formation means you can charge through flak if you need to in order to get to a very valuable target. Personally, I get up to 6 in a formation before I start a second group. If I'm going heavy on aircraft, I'll take 12 and split them 9/3 so I have one big monster group that can brave anything, and another for cleanup or interception. I'd recommend a 6/3 split.

Quote:
Totals out at 5k points.

Aircraft and gargants are limited to 1/3 of the army points. You'll have to drop something and/or field more regular troops.

If you are wanting 2 gargants just to go with big stuff, Supastompas don't count against the 1/3 limit. That would shift your ratio in favor of normal troops and still give you another war engine.
Author:  Daklathen [ Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I could use some help with Orks
So, something more along these lines:

Warband +3 Battlewagons +2 Flakwagons +3 Stormboys - 375

Warband +3 Battlewagons +2 Gunwagons - 375

Warband +3 Battlewagons +4 Flakwagons - 445

Warband +3 Battlewagons +3 Flakwagons - 410

Big Kult of Speed (8 buggies, 2 Skorcha, 6 Warbikerz) +2 Skorchas +3 Warbikers - 475

Big Blitz Brigade (4 Flakwagons 4 Gunwagons) +2 Oddboy +1 Gunfortress - 485

Big Blitz Brigade (4 Flakwagons 4 Gunwagons) +2 Oddboy - 350

Mekboy Stompa Mob +6 Stompas +1 Flakwagons - 710

Fighta Sqwadron +3 Fighta Bombas - 300

Fighta Sqwadron - 150

Great Gargant - 850

Should be 5k points. Where do I stick character stands? They don't have a points cost that I can see...
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I could use some help with Orks
Yep, for the most part. That set of minis will also give you access to a lot of different configurations beyond just this specific list.

Quote:
Big Kult of Speed (8 buggies, 2 Skorcha, 6 Warbikerz) +2 Skorchas +3 Warbikers - 475

Apparently, I wasn't clear. Never by core units as "extras". It's much more expensive than buying them as size upgrades. For the KoS:

5 KoS units as "extras" - 125 points
8 KoS units as size-up - 150 points

Obviously, 8 units is a much better deal. It's a 25% discount on the per-unit price.


The other consideration is possibly specializing your KoS. People tend to make them either CC-oriented or FF-oriented, rather than piling them all together. Some more typical configurations would be...

CC KoS - 8 bikes - 200 points
CC KoS - 6 bikes, 2 buggies - 200 points
FF KoS - 6 skorchas, 2 buggies - 200 points
FF KoS - 7 skorchas, 1 buggy, 1 flakwagon - 235 points

CC Big KoS - 14 bikes, 2 buggies - 350 points
FF Big KoS - 14 skorchas, 2 buggies - 350 points

Quote:
Where do I stick character stands? They don't have a points cost that I can see...

The fanciest one can be the Warboss. Past that, they are just Nobz.

===

Also, the NetEA project has a revised Ork army list. It would shave a few points off your list (mostly because there is Big/Uge pricing for Stompa mobz). EUK (the UK Epic tournament org) has slightly modified list as well. You might want to check them out.
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