On Terminators in Land Raiders.
The Salamanders are able to buy up ot to two extra Land Raiders which makes a formation of 4 Salamanders Terminators and 6 Land Raiders (generic or Land Raider Redeemer, the extra 2 could also be Land Raider Prometheus). Pretty expensive though as this formation will cost 800pts but would be mobile for longer than with only 4 Land Raiders.

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After all the dust settled from the holidays and such, I now have lots of scouts, a THIRD thunderhawk, multiple dreadnaughts, many new rhinos and new land raiders (which are mainly just replacing older-style models), and drop pods ordered and on the way...

I have used two thunderhawks in a 3000-pt game in the past, but has anyone used three 'hawks in a game that small? (Of course, I'll keep it for those times when I play a REALLY big game...just wondering if anyone uses that much transporting air power in a standard 3000-pt list)

I know that the Raven Guard specialize in fast-strike attacks, but since I am sticking with standard SM force organization.... is it standard for SM players to take only drop pods or only thunderhawks, or is there any sort of 'standard ratio' that works well for people?

As I've said before, I like fast an army that comes in fast and hits hard, but if I start dropping lots of points to get thunderhawks and drop pods, then those are points that are not there at the start on the game. I'm concerned that my opponent will overwhelm me at the start because he will have so many more activations than I. I'm trying to find a good balance of ground units vs. air strike/transported units...and I don't want cheap ground units just for the sake of having them and upping my activation count, I need ground forces that are beefy and will be effective.

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I played this list a couple of times against MtM on Vassal. If memory serves he really didn't like it a few times, but I also remember being out-maneuvered late one game when I had very little left on the ground.

225 Assault
Chaplain
350 Devastator
Supreme Commander, Drop Pods
200 Strike Cruise
175 Scout
Sniper
300 Tactical
Drop Pods
300 Tactical
Drop Pods
400 Terminator
Chaplain
200 Thunderhawk
200 Thunderhawk
200 Thunderhawk
150 Thunderbolt
150 Thunderbolt
150 Thunderbolt

I intended it to be a drop company with THawks coming in and picking stuff up after the drop to air assault the next turn. If you out activate your opponent it's not that hard to do, but without that it gets significantly harder.

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Squats 2019-10-17

I see....so initially only the scouts are on the table? Did you do the drop on turn 1 so you could turn around and air assault on turn 2?

If you play against IG, aren't you pretty much guaranteed to be on the low end of activations?

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Yes. Remember thunderhawks are great bombers as well, can extract terminators, contest objectives etc. However 2 thunderhawks is far more common. So 2 thunderhawks, 2 warhounds, thunderbolts, terminators, tactical formation with SC as the base.

Yes and yes.

It depends on the guard player. If you concentrate your drop and focus on breaking activations you should be able to get your THawks in for extraction without them taking too much fire when landed. If a guard player has 12 activations there's got to be some in there that are easy to break.

From my RG games I remember that its important to keep the pressure up, so don't be afraid to retain if you can break another formation in doing so. That helps keep the activations relative and more importantly helps to preserve your force for later in the game.

@TRC - I sent you another PM.

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Squats 2019-10-17

Thanks Dave, my box is full so i don't see them unless I clear stuff!

The point behind this strategy is to use planet-falling to deploy the marines agressively and then to break the smaller formations maintaining an activation advantage for when the THawks pick up and assault (reducing your activations by three). The Space Cruiser and the various Drop-pods will play havoc with infantry formations, so the SM should strongly consider using a corner strategy to concentrate the IG formations and to take advantage of their more limited mobilitiy.

However, the strategy is a somewhat 'binary' one, destined either to significant success or significant failure, dependant upon the way that the IG deploy and the SM planet-falling locations. The point being that the marines have no real alternative strategy - If you use the EPIC-UK optional rules, the SM could to choose their deployment options before the game, so they could consider deploying the infantry in Rhinos or as garrisons instead of deploying from the Space Cruiser (the choice is made after objectives are placed, but before Spacecraft / garrisons / reserves etc are put aside). But upgrading with dreadnoughts then limits their deployment options . . .

If you seek to air-drop upgraded formations, an alternative is to use a Landing Craft that allows the SM to deploy vehicles as well to 'beef up' the otherwise weaker SM formations. As TRC suggests, others address the issues of balance and resilience by using WarHounds, and possibly a second Terminator formation. And the different SM codexes provide variant deployment options as already noted.

OK guys, I’ve come full circle with this game. At first I was the newbie who didn’t know anything about Epic, then I learned a little and played a few games and even had a few stellar victories, but lately I’ve repeatedly been getting my ass handed to me. So I’m looking for advice on tactics again. (Please feel free to re-tread the same ground with me, or direct me toward earlier posts)

DROP PODS:
I did my first drop last night, and it was not what you’d call fantastic. Turn two seems to be a pretty standard turn to drop on, so that’s what I planned. I expected my opponent to move up conservatively and cautiously and planned my orbital bombardment for that. But then on turn one he marched everything and rushed up into my face right away, so the bombardment was utterly wasted. I had decided to take two pods, and where I dropped them was not horrible (on opposite sides of a small wooded area), but afterwards my opponent said I should have dropped them where they could directly support one another. They were not far apart from one another (something like 20 cm), but he said the woods in between prevented direct support. My logic at the time was to drop near woods so that the units could immediately take cover in them and have good fields of fire on each side, but he said it was more important to be able to cover each other directly.
Another problem was the number and type units that I dropped: two devastators. He suggested dropping three pods instead of two, and dropping tactical squads with dreadnaught support. My dreadnaughts are not assembled yet so I couldn’t use them, and I guess it makes sense to take tacticals over devastators for the larger unit size….however… I’ve spoken earlier in this thread about how great drop pods seemed to me, but now that I’ve played a game using them…..in a standard 3000-point game, the strike cruiser is going to cost 200, then 900 points for three tactical squads to drop, then adding dreadnaught support…..so doing this would cost me anywhere between 1,100-1,400 points to pull off. Almost half my army! Were I to do this, with my current mindset, I would spend the other 1600 points taking as many cheap (200 pt or under) units as I could to try to up my overall number of activations.
To all those SM players who use drop pods: what do you drop in your pods, and what else do you take in a force with drop pods? Lately my army lists tend to have 11 activations. Is it standard to have overall fewer activations when using drop pods?

AIRCRAFT:
Particularly frustrating for me to work with. I took a unit of two thunderbolts in last night’s game, and all they did was die. If I take thunderbolt fighters and my opponent takes no aircraft, then I can do what I like with them. But if he takes fighters or fighter-bombers, then his aircraft nullify mine and my fighters nullify his….so what was the point? At least with thunderhawks there is the ability to land/extract troops as well. My hunters have performed spectacularly badly in every game I’ve played with them….I believe I’ve only hit with one shot at an aircraft that was on the way out and already done its damage. If my opponent takes a unit of two fighter-bombers and comes me for a ground attack and flies in range of one of my hunters…then I only get one shot at one of them (and only hit on a 5+), so at best I will only kill one F-B and he will still do whatever he came in to do. Irritating.

ASSAULT TEAMS, BIKES:
When my friend sold me the SM army it came with lots of bikes and lots of assault troops. Really like assault marines, but they seem to be little more than an inexpensive unit that dies quickly. At only four bases in size, and then only being really effective when getting into base-to-base to an opponent… most of the time I seem to just bounce off whatever I engage and end up broken and running. Do assault teams need a chaplain to be effective? What do SM players around here usually use assault troops for?
Same issue with bikes. They’re nice, I like them, but they aren’t really great at doing anything….unless I’m missing the point of them entirely. (I’ve never taken a character on a bike so I don’t know how well that would work)

TERMINATORS:
Admittedly, my favorite units in the game. Just love what they can do to an opponent and how resilient they are. For a short while I switched to delivering them via thunderhawks, but I think overall they do better teleporting in. But sadly, with the high cost of making an effective drop pod attack, I don’t know if I can take them. Can a SM 3,000-point list afford to take both effective drop pod strike teams and a terminator unit?

What do people feel about the Theory of Twos by The_Real_Chris – that one of any type of unit is irritating, but two is a serious problem? (Actually, I saw this in action last night when my opponent took two units of bikes, and two units of land raiders/predators/vindicators – pain in the ass and tough to break). I will admit, in the games when I have taken two units of terminators – those games are fun! Don’t remember if I won or overall how I did, but they were fun.

It seems that in my early introductory games I did fine when everything was ground-pounding, but as the games have become more complex and dynamic (aircraft, teleporting, artillery, etc.), I am struggling to come up with effective tactics to play with the more “fun” units and overcome my opponents.

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I'd point out that it was your first drop game, and Chris has played against drop armies before. That being the case, I wouldn't get discouraged from the game. It takes practice, like everything else. I'll also add, that turn 2 drops can take away a lot of your advantages unless you have some cunning plan/know your opponent. I'd much rather drop on turn 1 when I have a much better idea of where my opponent is going to be, and before he has a chance to put all of his formations on OW or just march out of the deployment zone. Also, if you're going to drop, drop as much as you can. Don't pussy foot around. You're spending 200 points on a Strike Crusier, get as much out of it as you can.

Re: TBolts. Try taking more. If you're out-numbered AC activation wise, then save them for an intercept where they can't be CAPed and can be put inside an AA bubble for some protection against intercepts. Also, your Hunter should be hitting on 4s. If it moved in the activation phase then it hits on 5s when AC disengage.

Most posters here agree that assault marines are costed for THawk delivery. But them in what and hit an isolated and prepped formation and you'll get your points back. On the bikes, I usually play mine with a Chaplain and an Attack Bike or two alongside armor. In general, formations made to assault are going to take losses so do the best you can to minimize the attacks back on you, and to stack the assault resolution in your favor (prep, prep and prep again/lots of support).

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Squats 2019-10-17

I love taking a chaplain in my Assault formations.

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Turn 1 drops are pretty common for SMs when I've seen them used. Lots of enemy troops are in a confined space in the deployment zone. Either they are easy to hit with barrages/deathwinds, or the opponent has to shove them all off to less strategically advantageous positions (or some combination of the two). After Turn 1, it's pretty easy for the enemy to do some serious redeployment, as you simply won't have the ground troops to pose a threat.

Activations shouldn't be that much of a problem with drop forces. Strategies vary based on personal preferences but don't load up on 350+ point Tac formations. I'd suggest a mix of Devs and Tacs to get some staying power and some firepower. Don't take so many upgrades that the price tanks activation count.

Dropping as many individual formations as you can provides certain advantages. If you concentrate them, the overlapping Deathwinds can put a hurt on enemy formations. What you lose in maneuver due to 3 slow formations being in close proximity, you gain by breaking enemy formations outright.

TBolts are best used in a close air support role. They can do some decent ground attacks and if you pick targets that are under your own AA umbrella any enemy interceptors have to brave flak before they get to take a shot at the Tbolts. Also, as you note, they are something of a preventative measure. If they cancel out enemy air, that's a wash. It's definitely better to tie up a few points playing air-chicken than to let their aircraft run amok.

Assault Marines really need air assaults to be effective. And Chaplains should almost always be taken. Even after the main air insert, 2-3 assault marine stands with an Inspiring bonus can pose a threat to smaller formations, even if the assault marines are reduced to using 5+FF attacks. With a good FF formation in support range, they might even take on a larger formation.

Bikes are good because they are fast and have solid assault attacks. If they can't directly attack an enemy formation, they can double move a long way to position for supporting an assault by a different formation. Personally, I like Librarians in Bike formations because they often end up supporting with their FF value. Other people prefer Chaplains because they are better in direct assaults.

In General
Most people agree that the optimal SM list has 3+ formations on table to defend the SM table half and act as reserves / objective grabbers / scouts-containers / supports etc (Note NOT all these roles simultaneously!). This is often where Warhounds, Land-Speeders, scouts and/or Tacs-Devs come in. A usefull consideration here is Devs with Dreadnoughts and Hunter upgrade as a Garrison, placed in an advanced position to provide the AA umbrella.

Using 'Corners' makes the enemy deployment a little more predictable, which in turn assist you in planning where to land your forces. As Neal says, Planetfalling forces need to have very clear roles, and need to be relatively close to each other to provide support. Depending on when you intend to planetfall, Terminators teleporting into the rear of the target area can assist greatly (then picked up by a THawk for a 2nd round assault). Alternatively, Termies flying into assault in a THawk is also very powerfull . . .
The main point is you must have a very clear roll for each of the formations, and alternative strategies to cater for those situations where the enemy has thown a curved ball and is not where you want him (which is usually the case as far as I am concerned )

A/C

• TBolts work best in two roles:- to ground assault broken formations, and to intercept other aircraft. If you put yours on CAP, it can deter the enemy - so you trade off each other's activations - but by not activating, you keep your options open (and preserve your a/c).
• THawks are multi-purpose units, excellent at assaults and recovering formations, but also good at gound assaults to shoot-up enemy formations and prepare targets.
• Landing Craft are THawks 'on steroids'! A bit more expensive, but even more flexible in their usage as they can also land forces in a nearby-supporting location (like a Black Templar Crusader formation or even Whirlwinds) to enable the Marines to mount a major assault with mechanised support.
• The main point about the Hunter is that it will place a BM on every enemy air formation, which is a significant help to you if it assaulting you, and also helps to prevent the A/c from returning next turn. If it shoots something down all the better, but don't bank on it (the same is true for TBolts). If you adopt this mindset, you realise that the enemy Air attacks will get through, so you need to make better use of cover to minimse the impact. The other main roles of the Hunter is to boost formation size, boost formation firepower and provide cover to adjacent infantry units.

Bikes Vs Assault
I am coming around to the thought that Bikes work better than Assault Marines in this style of army, because they are more versatile after the initial assault. Best deployed in THawk as a mobile reserve (though they can planetfall in a THawk if needed).

Termies
The Marines most cost effective formation! Don't go out without at least one formation. Used to spearhead your assault they are usefull both to teleport and air assault - what is not to like? Always take a Chaplain, but do not be afraid to use them to shoot as 8x AT/AP 5+ will hurt all but RA targets. And as for costs, at 400 pts, this is the equivalent of an upgraded Tac or Dev formation.

Theory of Twos
By and large I would agree with TRC that you get a kind of economy of scale in E:A where you use two formations in support of each other. Two IG infantry companies within 10cm of each other are much more effective than in separate locations, and the same is true of most SM formations. I quite like to use LC with Termies+Dreads as a major assault, supported by a 2nd termi formation in a THawk to capitalise on the assault. Taking this as the basic principle, you then time the planetfall around this, using Land-speeders, scouts and other on-table formations to pin / 'shape' the opponent.

But in the end, it is your plan and you should play to your style.

OK, so generally speaking, the feeling around here seems to be that Space Marines should do their Drop Attack on turn 1.

Thats fine, and it means that (in all likelihood) the space cruiser's bombardment will do damage as you drop it right into the opponent's deployment zone.

What about the drop itself and the deathwind attack? For that to do damage you'd have to drop REALLY close to your opponent. You'd do damage, but then SM forces might get ganged up on by nearby enemy units.

Is it generally better to do the drop deep in enemy territory where both the bombardment and deathwind will do damage and then only the dropped forces will support each other, or drop the pods further back in the center of the board (say, near an objective), give up doing much with the deathwind attack, but be close enough to the deployment zone that other SM forces can rush up to give stronger support the dropped units?

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The 3rd Turn drop is probably not going to work well (apart from being boring for your opponent), but the Marines can be equally effective dropping on trun #1 or turn #2. Much depends on where the objectives are placed and the speed of you opponents army.

For example, I played a drop army against some Marines with a Warlord. He place his two T&H objectives opposite one of mine to form a triangle into which he obviously intended to move his Warlord - so I deliberately set up a 2nd turn drop to 'ambush' him, and succeeded in killing the beast securing the centre of the table.

The same is true for corner deployments as it is quite usual on turn #2 to find enemy troops in the angle of the deployment zone ~30-45 cms in from both edges.

On the Deathwind attack, yes you do have to drop within 15cm of opposing forces for it to take effect, so by definition yo are going to assault the enemy at the earliest opportunity. The point here is that once on the ground, the troops are pretty imobile, being limited to 15cm movement. So again, be definition you need to make sure they drop somewhere usefull - near objectives.

Knowing this, an astute opponent may well deploy somewhere completely different - and this is where the 'meta-game' starts, with each person trying to out-fox the other. For example, for a long time, Rug would deploy his army in one or two dense clumps of figures that would suffer greatly if hit by the Space Cruiser bombardment and deathwinds; but usually the clumps were in unexpected places so not hit at all. It is for this reason that Drop army assaults are so hit-and-miss in my experience; either you get it right, cripple the relevant formations and then mount a devastating assault - or you find your troops in range of a lot of very unfriendly attention and get wiped out themselves.

Dropping at a distance is usually both a more gradual build-up and managable.