Wow, I've made some butthurty posts before, but JIMXII wins by a large margin! Breath deeply mate!

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"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

I still think the nid AV's are rubbish:
- the shooty ones will be doubling a lot because of the 30cm range and then throwing lots of dice but at 6+ and 7+ so Ork-like shooting (also easy to suppress)
- the firefighty one has 3 dice (yay) but at 5+ (nooooooo!!),
- the b2b one is neither fast, nor has infiltrate nor teleport so it's kind of hopeless
- carnifexes are not really meant for the epic table... like a close assault dread who can't drop pod.

The Trygon upgrade, which seems very innocuous, is actually really important. Ditto for the biovores. I'm willing to give the list a go as it is. I don't play comps so I don't really care that much one way or another.

FWIW, I think Epic UK and its list writers owe us nothing. FWIW, I bought some more gants and harridans the day before this change came about (lol!). FWIW, Tau get no love in this thread. FWIW, a lot of this discussion would be less dramatic if the NetEA tyranid list was a viable alternative.

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Hahah sorry internet and tone and pss taking are not a natural combo.

Im no hurt, nor no butt. Haha

Perhaps Jim is a little confused about what EpicUK is. It is a closed development, targeted at the UK tournament scene. Yes they take input from players, but it is not "open development". You are free to use the lists of course, but that doesn't grant you any authority over what changes. They don't have to do what "the community" wants and the development does not happen on this forum, with a structured approval process and requirement for X publicly posted battle reports etc... Just because you haven't seen the testing doesn't mean it hasn't happened. (Yes, if a tree falls in the woods with nobody around, it still makes a noise).

Y'know, if you prefer the previous version of the list... just keep using it. It's not like you're going to come to any UK tournaments, is it?

Still, I do think it'd be cool if EpicUK were a little less... opaque. A post or item on the website describing how the development works and where to send feedback would be cool, like Rug suggests. And it wouldn't hurt to have occasional posts on here like: "Hey guys, we're thinking of reviewing the tyranid list because some builds appear OP in UK tournaments. Comments on a postcard!"

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Hey Kryt.
Nice post.
Im not suggesting that epicUK change their system at all. Happy with not even getting into that debate! haha. And all in all i found that the nid list is the only one we use on the east coast of the EUK lists. So im not suggesting i have a dog in the fight at all.

I just thought some of steves comments were what I like to call "classic taccomds"
Seems sudden - its not.
Seems ill conceived - it isnt.
Seems too drastic - its not.
Seems to invalidate the only competitive build - so? Hahah

Its all good, and not that EUK owes anyone anything, but maybe a little more than "tournament results" and "feedback" would have helped to satiate my inquiries.

Because I know my tournament results have shown that I have been forced to work hard for every single victory (currently sitting at 10-0 with that list I posted before - no big deal hahah). But Ive also won tourneys with eldar and guard and come second with marines. Okay so now im just bragging what was my point.


Oh yes - so I can there was a need to maybe redress the list. But it was such a magnificent edifice of swarmness! That is a shame, nay heart breaking to watch that element be diminished - even if only so marginally.

Id prefer not to play the old version if there is a more uptodate version so that it makes it easier for opponents to understand and research my list. That being said... epicau Hive Fleet Behemoth... will be casting its shadow over realspace very soon... think bio ships and tyranocytes... tervigons and venomthorpes...

Cheers,
Jim

so you have won 10–0 so far with a list, but are now complaining about it having its power reduced?

Assuming you are playing against people of approximately equal skill and with sensible lists, 10–0 would suggest the list needs balancing.

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AFK with real life, still checking PMs

As a big player of the Epic UK Tyranid list, and the biggest user of the assault swarms and harridans list in UK tournaments, I think all the changes are good.

The assault and harassment swarms were both really solid formations, and too good for their points value; it's why my lists normally consisted of only them and some genestealers.

Even with all the changes, my most common list would only have to drop one activation and would still be basically just about as effective; certainly still capable of competing with any other list it would run up against.


And that's not even going into the other new positive changes for the list; fearless Carnifexs, even cheaper Biovores, now-actually-usable Zoanthropes, slightly better Trygons and better Bio Titans.

In short, I think the changes were warranted and leave behind a still very competitive list; go out and turn those ten unbeaten victories into ten losses in a row if you really want to prove otherwise.

I just think it would have been nice to have put something like:

UPDATED TYRANIDS A popular tournament army, although generally well balanced it has been found that Assault Swarms are a very powerful choice. Especially in large numbers, combined with a high activation count using other fast or teleporting war-engine formations to disrupt or harass the enemy. To this end the normal and big Assault Swarm formation costs have been increased. Additionally the very powerful Harassment Swarm has seen a structural adjustment combined with a slight points increase. At the same time a few internal imbalances have been addressed. Brute Swarms, always a poor choice compared to Assault Swarms have received a small points drop. This combined with the increased cost of Assault Swarms should make them a much more favourable choice. Additionally a number of upgrade points costs and options have been removed, reduced in cost and harmonised. A number of underperforming units have received improvements. Carnifex have received the fearless ability while Lictors have received a small armour boost and the upgrade option has received a points drop. Spore Mine Clusters have gained improved firepower. Zoanthropes have received a slight boost to their firepower and have also been designated armoured vehicles. Biovores have also seen a small points decrease. Finally the Hierophant and Hydraphant Bio-Titans have both seen their firepower increased, additionally the Hydraphant has had its firefight increased to 4+. This is to make them better choices in the competitive rare section. Well I hope this answers your questions of What, How and Why. If not please send the EPIC UK team an email and we will try to answer any queries you may have.

In your army list.... Which you did.... and i just read it. So sorry for carrying on. The list updates do make sense. Cheers for pitting the effort in to explain it. Sorry ive only read it now.

@apoc I feel you may only reaf half my post and then flame up at whatever strikes your fancy. After I have said that I have won 10-0 i later acknowledge that list did need to be redressed.

Also the first 2 wins were in warm up games and the other 8 over 2 tournaments. Whilst there was some discrepancy in skill level, i found the nids to be a really fun and exciting list to play. With a number of weaknesses that are balanced against the effectiveness of the swarms. I overall found that even against a less experienced opponent the list was a challenge to run and made for some very close and challenging games of epic. A very nice change from the style of play of my usual marines, eldar and guard.

The break down of wins was:
3-0 AMTL
2-0 orcs
5-0 space marines
5-0 iyanden
2-0 necrons
4-0 squats
5-0 knights
2-0 violin tau
1-0 win on points necrons (i think this actually counts as a draw? )
2-0 minervans

Again sorry for being a prat. I should have read the full list rather than just looking at the data sheet.

Cheers
Jim

You did indeed acknowledge that, unfortunately i'd also read your posts on the previous pages, which is why I was then surprised to see you had been winning 10–0, given the depth of your feeling.

Good to see it's resolved though, hope your playtests go well.

As for flaming up , come now, all I can say is: So that's quits then.

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AFK with real life, still checking PMs

Tried making a new look nid list today and sorry but biotitans still not viable. I mean...


30cm move and 4+ save maybe. 300 pts on 25cm move, no shields and 5+ RA? Nope.

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Compared to a Hierophant the Subjugator takes less hits to kill on average, has less fire power and is an assault specialist that engages on a 2+ (against most formations other than larger warengines (which are rare) it is also worse than a Hierophant in combat) and rallies on a 4+. It is significantly cheaper so it does have that going for it and it is in a strat 4 army which is significant but it does't look a much better choice to me.

The Deathwheel is probably one of the better warengines for its cost in the game, so the fact a Hierophant doesn't immediately stack up against it doesn't make the Hierophant unplayable. I would point out the Hierophant does have comparable firepower (worse against Inf, better against armour). Also the Deathwheel crit is harsh.

It's like we play a different game.

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If people want data about EpicUK nid's go here - http://epic-uk.co.uk/ukepicachampionship/albyr.php pick tyranids and you can see all the lists used, how they did in that event and what lists they played against.

There is a How, What and Why section at the end of all the EpicUK codex's that list changes and some of the thoughts that brought them about.

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While I've got you EpicUK people here...

In the Dark Eldar list are Warrior Kabals meant to be able to take the Warriors upgrade?