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Epic UK Update - AMTL and Eldar

 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - AMTL and Eldar
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:37 pm 
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I find it odd how players are quick to use basic stats and strategies to justify things in their favour but even quicker to add stipulations to those stats and strategies when it suits.

@ Rug
Again, nobody mentioned killing a Reaver in turn 1,it was killing a Reaver in 1 turn, there's a big difference.
Also no I wouldn't use it, not even at 700 because I don't use formations at that cost in any of my lists but that doesn't mean they aren't worth more than 700.

@ E@C
The same formation at 700 points can be pounded on exactly the same.

@ Gavin
How many times over the years have players been advised to use tactics to get the most out of formations (tactics like crossfire or the usual move at the end of the turn and then activate first next turn to sustain or even move/shoot/support) , but thats only when it suits. When it doesn't suit stats are rolled out about how easy it is to counter or the firepower is poor because of having to double move or shoot into cover and so on and the opponent won't just sit and wait to be destroyed.

It's down to players to get the most out of formations by using them to the best of their abilities (tactics wise) and the best of their abilities are what should be used to base points costs on.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - AMTL and Eldar
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:40 pm 
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Rug wrote:
I seems to me someone actually needs to try the Aspect-Falcon formation in a tournament, as far as I'm aware it's never happened!

Personally I'll be trying it with Dark Reapers for suppression reasons and gunning for big formations of infantry in transports. The other combo I've tried in friendlies is with Swooping Hawks.

That'll be very interesting. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - AMTL and Eldar
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:52 pm 
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LoL dptdexys, you are of course correct about the use / abuse of stats and tactics to illustrate points either way :D

And I think we can agree that given the optimum circumstances, it might just be possible for the Falcon Aspects to take down a Reaver - though this seems improbable for the reasons mentioned. However, as we all seem to agree that this is a very sub-optimal choice, Aspects in Falcons are unlikely to be seen outside experimental games just to see what can be done. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - AMTL and Eldar
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:55 pm 
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I am much more interested in fixing the Cobra - which I have tried out at tournaments - and which these changes seem to nerf rather than improve. And also the loss of multiple Void Spinners.

Can these changes be revised at all?


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - AMTL and Eldar
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:05 pm 
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- you may not like the Cobra change but how does it 'nerf' it?

- I can't see how anybody can justify making a fuss about not being able to take a multiple Void Spinner formation when in the previous 6 years when the option was available nobody has taken them.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - AMTL and Eldar
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:52 pm 
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I have been known to take double spinners but not in championship tournaments (not because championship tournaments are more important, I don't distinguish, just the way it's happened).

I suppose logically, if 2x spinners is not OP at 500 (as evidenced by their lack of use) then surely they are not OP at 525?

But I'm not complaining about the change, it is really a minor thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - AMTL and Eldar
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:56 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
- you may not like the Cobra change but how does it 'nerf' it?

I personally don't think its a nerf, I'm interested to try it.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - AMTL and Eldar
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:14 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
LoL dptdexys, you are of course correct about the use / abuse of stats and tactics to illustrate points either way :D

And I think we can agree that given the optimum circumstances, it might just be possible for the Falcon Aspects to take down a Reaver - though this seems improbable for the reasons mentioned.

Gavin/Rug I think you both need to re read what I posted, it wasn't me that said they could eat a reaver in 1 sitting.
Kyrt stated he would be tempted to take the 8xFD and 8 Falcons @700 points because he thought it was capable of doing A,B and possibly C. I said if they could do that then to me they are worth more than 700 points.
I stick by that, a formation in a high strategy rated army which can use hit and run/triple retain actions (to get rid of nearby threats if needed) can kick out 16x4+, 8x5+ and 8x5+MW ranged shots plus 8x4+MW and 5x4+ FF attacks before any modifications is surely worth over 700 points.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - AMTL and Eldar
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:25 pm 
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The cobra isn't nerfed, in my opinion, it no longer can go after big titans on it's own (a reason to take multiples if thats how it is to be used) it has to be used in conjunction with other formations if you want to go after big stuff. It is however good on it's own as a small WE hunter.

I like the d6 TK, I see the option of d3+2 = auto kill (on a hit obviously) for any unshielded DC3 WE and takes away some of the risk, however small that risk is, of going after other EoV and Superheavies (other than a miss of course).


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - AMTL and Eldar
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:30 pm 
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It's not nerfed but it's been made more generic IMO.... I really liked how it scaled with the size of the war engine, shame I never got to compare the two....

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - AMTL and Eldar
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:07 pm 
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Eldar aside, I have a question about the AMTL list, it says in the 'what how and why' section that you can't have more air formations than battle titans, yet doesnt say this anywhere in the list.....which is correct?

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - AMTL and Eldar
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:19 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
Eldar aside, I have a question about the AMTL list, it says in the 'what how and why' section that you can't have more air formations than battle titans, yet doesnt say this anywhere in the list.....which is correct?


The army list is correct, just a late change that wasn't updated into the what, how and why - sorry, my mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - AMTL and Eldar
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:38 am 
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Ok guys, let me try to explain further the issues with the Cobra changes as I see them.

In the original stats the Cobra was slightly sub-par as a titan killer, but that was its primary role. The 30cm range combined with the FF arc of fire intentionally reduces the impact of this powerfull weapon against normal targets.

These changes reduce the titan killing abilities but do not remove the other restraints. The restricted arc means that the only way to use them defensively on OW etc is in a corner - otherwise the enemy merely move outside the arc forcing the unit to move to bring the gun to bear on its target, while the low range means that they are outranged by most other weaponry and usually have to double into position to fire.

A single MW3+ shot at 30cm is significantly worse than the Scorpion 2x MW2+ 75cm, (and even that was the subject of debate). Also the TK D(6) is more random and potentially much weaker. While on average it will provide 3.5 TK damage (slightly better than the 3 TK damage from the D3+1), the max and minimums are less predictable, but more importantly shooting at WE over 2DC gives the chance of multiple hits and hence larger amounts of TK damage.

BP3 ignore cover makes this better at killing infantry - so more generalist - though it has to move to do so (and often has to double) negating the advantage, while the targets can save hits further reducing the impact. Night Spinners are more cost effective having disrupt (though you need to take a minimum of two formations to realise these advantages), and Void Spinner is much better ranged as well as having Disrupt.

So, while apparently making the weapon more powerfull by increasing to BP3 and improving the chances of a MW hit, in practice it is actually weaker against WE, not really better against other targets, and generally less usefull than other EoV.

Finally and perhaps most significantly, it removes the fear factor the TK template induces in titans. The mere presence of the Cobra means that titans tend to give that part of a battlefield a wide berth 'just in case'. This threat can no longer be used by the Eldar player.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - AMTL and Eldar
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:12 am 
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The Cobra has become weaker against large War Engines, better against small War Engines. Pretty much a wash there.

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