I personally hope you do come to a tournament this year, its always good to get new players and ideas, its also great fun - Of course I would say that as I am a member of the Evil Empire, sorry I mean Epic-UK

Also if you disagree strongly with something its often better to present your view to someone in person - you might not change their mind but at least you have a better chance of getting them to think.

Some Points raised in this discussion


1. Fracture of the Epic Community

Lets face it this happened the instant GW removed support and stopped doing any official list development or even new models, its a pipe dream to think otherwise. As strange as it may seem there are many epic players who dont even look at this site or any internet epic site and couldnt care less about NetERC or Epic UK, so there is your first fracture and biggest one.

Worrying that a group of epic gamers putting together and running epic tournaments in the UK is somehow detrimental to the continuing growth or development of epicA just seems a bit strange to me.


2. An obvious mistake

Its all fairly moot now and maybe it would have made no difference but NetERC didnt include a single member from the UK let alone a tournament player - as they like to say in Warmachine its all about the Metagame, that is what works for one group or area may not for another group or area, forgetting to do this was definately a mistake in my opinion.


3. NetEPIC Tournament Sheet

This is a nice sheet, however no tournament in the UK was using it -why? at the end of the day there was no single group running tournaments that could discuss it and agree to its use, the GW GT and Open wars were run alongside other 40K or Fantasy events by people who had marginal interest in Epic and no interest whatsoever in NetERC sheets and all other events were run by MattO who was basically listening to the majority view of players that were attending his tournaments.

Will Epic-UK use it - probably not in its entirety, but its certainly being looked at and alot of it will be used.


4. New Armies

These are certainly not going to be re-writes they are basically just amending the current lists to adjust a few balance issues following the NetERC fairly closely in many cases and making changes based on specific UK tournament issues in others.

Any new lists are really just variants with as few changes as possible to give players attending tournaments more choices of which army to take.


5. Dark Eldar and other NetERC lists

The Dark Eldar list as far as I can see is a nice one and very well balanced, but again what did that matter before in terms of UK tournaments, there was no one to make it official. Its now certainly going to be discussed by Epic-UK.

Probably a similar process will occur with any other lists in the future.


6. People using different Army Lists

Is this really such a big deal, we all do it everytime we play at home anyway, we all have house rules or things we change to suit our own groups. I am off too belgium for a tournament in two weeks and have effectively had to learn a bunch of new lists was it somehow traumatic. No I found the lists interesting, with things I didnt agree with and things I liked. I am really looking forward to playing and experiencing other players ideas of the game we all love.


7. Not Going to Tournaments

At the end of the day all I can say is its your loss, epicA tournaments are great fun, challenging and you would meet a great bunch of enthusiastic players who love epicA just like you.

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Epic UK - Improving and Enhancing Epic Gaming in the UK
[url]http://epic-uk.co.uk/wp[/url]

I believe Steve54, The_Real_Chris, and Tiny-Tim are all "UK tournament goers" and are all NetERC Army Champions, so I'm not sure how the "UK scene" isn't being represented.

EDIT - D'oh, stepping on Hena's toes!

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

They probably will eventually be allowed at Epic-UK events when other races are looked at later in the year.

As far as I know all of the work on taccomms has been heavily considered by the Epic-UK committee when lists have been developed.So there isn't any work done on here that is thrown out.

Lists like seigemasters,Guard and variants,all the Eldar variants,Chaos variants,Tau,Tyranids,nerons in fact every list known will eventually be worked through one race at a time and brought up to date by the Epic-UK site with All the work done here on taccomms taken heavily into consideration.

As an avid Warmachine player, could you explain how the "metagame" concept applies to the UK tournament scene?  What is so radically different there from other places people play?

In Warmachine, the "meta" usually refers to the specific armies/compositions that are commonly in play, so that if no one plays Khador, when a Khador player does show up and "kicks butt", people think that the faction is broken and should be "nerfed", yet it's completely balanced in a venue where people are used to playing against them.

So, I'd be interested in hearing some specific EPIC examples of this.  Thanks!

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Gotta love the internet its always really confrontational without even trying

Meta game to me refers to the environment a specific army finds itself fighting in, in epic there is a definite paper scissors stone effect so if at a tournament or in a local group, a large number of players are using Black Legion and a few players are using marines (an army that is very powerful but unfortunately struggles a little against black legion) you would tend to get a group of very vocal players saying Blacklegion are broken the same group with a mix of BlackLegion and Soopagun armed ork lists might think the opposite.

Another example might be relative prevalance of air or titans in a local gaming environment leading to localised ideas about what is very powerful or underpowered etc

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Epic UK - Improving and Enhancing Epic Gaming in the UK
[url]http://epic-uk.co.uk/wp[/url]

This I think Hena is called a difference of opinion

_________________
Epic UK - Improving and Enhancing Epic Gaming in the UK
[url]http://epic-uk.co.uk/wp[/url]

I haven't seen the full Marine lists yet either and won't until March 1st. They will then be released to the public for testing,not instantly allowed at tournaments

One aim is to get more lists that have been tried and tested (especially by players that are going to use them) into the UK tournament circuit.

There isn't an elite group who are making lists and then saying "these will be used",all lists will be tested by current UK tournament players (hopefully others will try them too) before we all agree what will be allowed at UK tournaments.

I didn't think you were being confrontational yme-loc, and I wasn't intending to be either.

I was just curious about your "meta" comment... are you saying that, "Because people are taking a lot of Black Legion armies, we're changing the rules for Black Legion" is a typical or actual design response the EpicUK dev team would have?

I'm confused as to the type of meta that warrants rules changes.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Could you give us an example of four changes that are trying to make "the cut"?

I'm just curious as to the "level" of change we're talking about.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

I would say I was using the statement in perhaps too broad a sentiment, I was really just saying that in combination with the odd nature of the internet - that is who shouts loudest and longest wins combined with the nature of localised environments forming strong oppinions (that might not be correct in a broader sense or even to another local environment) and those with strong oppinions then being the ones most likely to give the loudest and longest oppinions doesnt always lead to the best result.

Applied directly to the UK tournament scene lets say we use a NetERC army list or rule or whatever without change and it proves to be overpowered, what would we do - we would have to change it for the enjoyment of all tournament players, how does that differ from us spotting obvious problems (at least to us from our localised environment) and beforehand changing them to suit a tournament scene.

_________________
Epic UK - Improving and Enhancing Epic Gaming in the UK
[url]http://epic-uk.co.uk/wp[/url]

What rules changes ? as far as I can see there are no new rules changes.

The only things different at UK tourneys (which have been this way for a year or more) are,
"They shall not pass"goal.Where half the remaining units in a formation instead of 1 stand has to be in opponents table half.

Plus Marine players are allowed to swap rhinos for drop pods before any set up is started (including objective placement).Personally I've never seen anyone swap as most players usually have a set plan of deployment and tactics they want to use.

These changes were made after discussion and agreement by UK tournament players about what was wanted.

+25 points on Termies,
+25 points on Warhounds,
-25 points on Predators,
-50 points on Vindicators.

Does that help
From what I have seen it's not much different to the taccomms amendments