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ERC Representation
vanvlak
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:09 am 
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No. 8 wire sounds good... :) :)

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:13 am 
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Well it looks like I've set the cat among the pigeons with this one, but this was one of the reasons for this.

My main reason for calling for an additional representative was that those of us who don't play as much as we used to, but still want to contribute can contact someone that they know (or at least put a face to) with ideas and comments. Then if the suggestion is rejected we can have a reasonable response as to why.

We are providing a service to GW here with updating and improving (in some cases) the rules. Once we as a community tell GW/SG that this is the revised set of rules that we wish to play from they will accept it and congratulate themselves on the development money that they have saved. We already have Braveheart working on revising GW tournament rules pack for Epic so a set of rules, no problem.

One final point, I have a friend that likes to play BFG and his main positive comment about the rules was that GW had left them alone and was not issuing revision after revision. If it an't broke don't fix it.

Tim

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Moscovian
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:37 pm 
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What about an email to Andy from ALL of us?  We all sign it with our names and how much money we've spent on SG in the last 5 years and send it off.

It can be something general like we want more control over the ERC, preferably by election.  At a minimum we want the ERC to actually be held to predetermined timelines.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:49 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Sep. 06 2007,06:37)
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What about an email to Andy from ALL of us?  We all sign it with our names and how much money we've spent on SG in the last 5 years and send it off.

Why does GW care how much money you already spent?

In fact, I don't think GW even cares how much you will spend since its a drop in the bucket compared to what they get from 40K sales.

Not to sound overly pessimistic but

a) GW doesn't care because GW can't make enough money from this game to make it worth their effort
b) Andy doesn't care because he wants to work on stuff that has a chance to make it in White Dwarf (can't blame him)

The only people that care are us.

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blackhorizon
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:51 pm 
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(Tiny-Tim @ Sep. 06 2007,10:13)
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One final point, I have a friend that likes to play BFG and his main positive comment about the rules was that GW had left them alone and was not issuing revision after revision. If it an't broke don't fix it.

Quite right!

They have fixed the main issues since '99 (Ordnance & Nova Cannon) and the rest is almost still the same.

Although there are some tidbits still to be cleaned.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:49 pm 
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PG, I understand your posting and agree with you.  Personally I don't think they care at all.  However, I am trying to satisfy the folks out here (yourself included) who keep insisting that Andy's seal of approval is needed to legitimize the changes we're making.

A letter/petition to Andy will either work or it won't.  If it works then we will see changes and that will be good.  If it doesn't work it tells everyone that we should move on without him and SG/GW.  

But so far you have argued against breaking away and doing our own thing but also just pointed out that it isn't worth trying to get Andy to help because GW doesn't care.  I'm trying to pin down where you stand on this.  (both opinions on the same thread!)  One thing I can guarantee is that if we just wait for Andy and the ERC to do something we will grow long beards.

I want a new ERC.  I want elections for the members. I want Tactical Command to be the new hub of Epic-dom.  I want TacCom to be the primary place where people go to for Epic information.  I want TacCom to help grow the Epic community, not just satisfy the existing one.  I think all of this is achievable if we loose the GW shackles we've bound ourselves with.   But I am willing to give Andy the opportunity to take back control of Epic and be a leader.  Sending this letter might just afford him that chance.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:09 pm 
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Where I stand on this:

1) GW/SG/Andy won't do anything to improve or promote Epic
2) We need to do something independent of them to update the game
3) We have to be careful how we do 2 as they have already made it clear that they will send lawyers at us
4) We need to start building a community outside of the Epic Forum and SG website and start moving gamers from the Epic site to that new community
5) We need to talk to existing 6mm manufacturers to get them to create proxy minis for the missing Epic units or armies

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:12 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Sep. 06 2007,07:49)
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But I am willing to give Andy the opportunity to take back control of Epic and be a leader.  Sending this letter might just afford him that chance.


We know he won't so why waste the time?

Lets just operate under the assumption that we won't get official support and start working from there.

Now I still think that getting an official version of the rules is the best thing but I do not for a second think that we are going to get any help producing them

So what we need to do is approach GW with the work done, get the approval of the Epic community and then basically force their hand.

"Here it is, the community supports it, please post it".

That is, I think, the only way to get the official release we need

Long term, we take control of the process and slowly move people from the Epic forum and website to other community sites so that in the future we don't need to do this

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Moscovian
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:20 pm 
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I agree on all 5 points.  However other people do not agree with us.  The letter will give those people the opportunity to be right.  I'd rather deal with the nay sayers now and be done with it.  If Andy ignores the letter or gives us a less than satisfying answer, then we can post that here.  It should be enough to help people make a smart decision.

In fact, I am going to write the letter and post a copy here.  Anyone who wants their name on that letter can let me know their email addresses and any other info you want to share with Andy about yourself (time playing Epic, dollars spent, etc).

Stay tuned.

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Markconz
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:38 pm 
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Mosc, I think a little tact is required.

Andy is in a difficult situation. If I was him I probably wouldn't do anything in the current situation either. So people are not happy with the current set-up? What guarantee or evidence does Andy have that any replacement he appoints will do any better, and not do something a whole lot worse? I'm sure Greg and the other missing members of the ERC entered with good intentions too.

Talks easy, but end results is what counts.  Evidence of some practical concrete results with wide community support would be results. Such would be harder to ignore than the daily stream of complaining and petitions from special interest groups that GW is no doubt bombarded with.  Note just how many documents on SG site are largely or entirely fan works, even major ones like the Bloodbowl Handbook.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:56 pm 
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Evidence of some practical concrete results with wide community support would be results.


That's why I like the community suppliments idea. :)

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Moscovian
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:56 pm 
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Tact? (I am laughing) Keep in mind you are drafting a document that could be considered by the GW lawyers to be a violation of their IP and at then talking out of the other end of your mouth about how Andy is in a delicate situation.  Your work is going to make his job even that much more difficult - have you considered that?

If Andy appoints new ERC members, he/we will definitely be left  with a giant question mark on their productivity.  That is why elections are so important.  People who want to be on the ERC need to earn their stay there.  Public opinion via elections is a tried and true way to keep people from turning into sloths, especially in an acitve community such as this.

So far I have very vocal people telling me what won't work, but nobody is proposing a solution besides waiting.  I don't see what is so distasteful about asking Andy to let us elect new members.  What is the worst he can say?  NO?  We end up with the same result that we have right now.

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Ginger
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:51 pm 
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Guys, at the risk of repeating myself (check page 2 of this thread):-

Firstly, let?s get behind Markonz to sort out the rules and FAQ.
I think it would probably be a good idea to post it back on the SG forum in the near future (as others have said, it is their IP, and allows them the chance to take it back under the control of ?their? ERC).

Next, let?s continue the army champion principle and sort out the lists (as Neal has already started to do).
This ain?t going to be easy folks, but we know the process ? I just hope we can find enough champions who are not disillusioned by the whole process.

Finally, please try to work together to produce something concrete, rather than scoring points off each other. Let?s be prepared to try out some of the ideas presented, and try to move towards a consensus opinion rather than shouting loudly. Markonz is right in that taking measured action is far more preferable than just shouting. By all means, write letters to the ERC, Andy JJ and co - and here I agree with you Mosc, the result could be a lottery, but if we approach this the right way, we might even see you elected to the new ERC (along with Markonz and Mephiston). Personally I would much rather do it with some form of official sanction on the SG boards

However, ultimately I think we all want progress - any progress at all, rather than the current stagnation and childish bickering that is harming the community rather than helping it

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:52 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Sep. 06 2007,08:56)
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If Andy appoints new ERC members

We know for a fact that he has already said that he isn't interested in doing so and doesn't see the need.

Unless the point behind this is to get him to publicly state this I don't see the point

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