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European Epic Championship Berlin 27th/28th of Sept. 2014

 Post subject: Re: European Epic Championship Berlin 27th/28th of Sept. 201
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:42 pm 
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In regards to matchups will it be random or, for example, will it be all 4 players from Germany vs all 4 players from Sweden etc.
Most team events I've seen follow this route

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 Post subject: Re: European Epic Championship Berlin 27th/28th of Sept. 201
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:52 am 
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Steve54 wrote:
In regards to matchups will it be random or, for example, will it be all 4 players from Germany vs all 4 players from Sweden etc.
Most team events I've seen follow this route


Each player plays 5 matches - so each team plays 20 matches.
The 5 matches of a player will be against opponents of as many different teams as possible.
The 20 matches of a team will be as evenly split between opposing teams as possible.

This will only be simple if 6 teams take part.
In this case, each player would play against one member of each team. Which member will be determined randomly.
So each team has 4 matches against each other team. Every match by different players.

If there are more than 6 teams, each player could not play against a member of every other team (in 5 matches he can only play 5 different teams). Which team he doesn't play against is determined randomly, but it will be made sure that each team plays the same number of games against every other team, by having different players "not play" different teams.

If there are less than 6 teams, each player will have to play against some teams more than once. Which team he plays against twice is determined randomly, but it will be made sure that each team plays the same number of games against every other team, by having different players play different teams twice.

There are cases in which it is impossible to have the same number of matches between all teams. In this case the number of games will be matched as close as possible. Which teams plays which teams more often will be determined randomly.

You can try it out using that webpage http://brumbaer.de/Matchmaker/index.html?a
You have to enter the teams first, than you can start a tournament. It will show you you all matches.
If you abort the tournament you can start again without entering the teams again.
When starting again the matches will be recalculated. As the process is random, you should get different matches with every tournament.

You can also enter results in the WebApp, which will determine the ranking automatically from the results.
I only tested the App from Mac and iPad, but it's HTML5/Javascript, so there is no reason why it wouldn't run in any modern browser.


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 Post subject: Re: European Epic Championship Berlin 27th/28th of Sept. 201
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:42 am 
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brumbaer wrote:
All armies must be painted.
Army size is 3000 points.
No team may field the same race more than once. Race being Space Marines, Orks, Imperium etc. I.e. it is not possible for a team to field both a Steel Legion and a Minervan army, as both belong to the same Race.


A question rose up among the Swedes planning to go. Would Dark Eldar and Biel Tan (I guess regular eldar) be considered of the same race? They're two players first choices. I assume the answer is yes, but want to be certain.


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 Post subject: Re: European Epic Championship Berlin 27th/28th of Sept. 201
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:04 am 
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Similarly are lost and the damned the same 'race' as black legion and the other chaos marine lists?

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 Post subject: Re: European Epic Championship Berlin 27th/28th of Sept. 201
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:51 am 
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A race is what in the NetEA Compendium would be a colour coded group and what in Epic UK would be grouped together in a Codex.

Space Marines
- Codex Astartes
- Salamanders
- Scions of Iron
- White Scars
Imperial Guard
- Steel Legion
- Baran Siege Masters
- Korps of Krieg
- Minervan Tank Legion
Chaos
- Chaos Cultist Stigmatus Covenant
- Chaos Space Marine Black Legion
Eldar
- Biel Tan
- Alaitoc
Necron
- Necron
Dark ELdar
- Dark Eldar
Ork
- War Horde
- Speed Freaks
- Feral Orks
Tau
- Tau
Tyranid
- Tyranid

Edit:
Indendation


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 Post subject: Re: European Epic Championship Berlin 27th/28th of Sept. 201
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:40 pm 
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Ok good then we can both play :)

Just have to say tough. That LatD and Black Legion can't both play seems a bit odd. They are as far away from each other as marines and imperial guard to me.


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 Post subject: Re: European Epic Championship Berlin 27th/28th of Sept. 201
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:37 pm 
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Borka wrote:
Ok good then we can both play :)

Just have to say tough. That LatD and Black Legion can't both play seems a bit odd. They are as far away from each other as marines and imperial guard to me.


I agree - but - so what ?

The single goal of this rule is to prevent teams showing up with one race or even worse one single armylist to the tournament.

The distinction by "codex/color code/race" feels natural and intuitive to me.

There are 3024 permutations to form 4 teams out of 9 races. Add the fact that some races have more than one option, you will easily cross the 5000 combination mark (anybody willing to calculate the exact number).
This should be plenty opportunity for every team to find a "working" combination of races - even if they can't choose different lists from the same Race.

Please note that if you're unlucky you might still end up fighting the same race more than once (by playing against members of different teams).
Note to self: Add "codex" check to Matckmaker App

PS.
This rule leads to some interesting discussion in our team - not discussion about the rule, but because of the rule.
Who will play what army, who will be comfortable playing an army different from his "main" army because we can only have one army of each race and because some armies are more tournament savvy than others. It's interesting to see the different ways the players approach the topic and see the dynamic of the group at work :)


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 Post subject: Re: European Epic Championship Berlin 27th/28th of Sept. 201
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:26 am 
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brumbaer wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
In regards to matchups will it be random or, for example, will it be all 4 players from Germany vs all 4 players from Sweden etc.
Most team events I've seen follow this route


Each player plays 5 matches - so each team plays 20 matches.
The 5 matches of a player will be against opponents of as many different teams as possible.
The 20 matches of a team will be as evenly split between opposing teams as possible.

This will only be simple if 6 teams take part.
In this case, each player would play against one member of each team. Which member will be determined randomly.
So each team has 4 matches against each other team. Every match by different players.

If there are more than 6 teams, each player could not play against a member of every other team (in 5 matches he can only play 5 different teams). Which team he doesn't play against is determined randomly, but it will be made sure that each team plays the same number of games against every other team, by having different players "not play" different teams.

If there are less than 6 teams, each player will have to play against some teams more than once. Which team he plays against twice is determined randomly, but it will be made sure that each team plays the same number of games against every other team, by having different players play different teams twice.

There are cases in which it is impossible to have the same number of matches between all teams. In this case the number of games will be matched as close as possible. Which teams plays which teams more often will be determined randomly.

You can try it out using that webpage http://brumbaer.de/Matchmaker/index.html?a
You have to enter the teams first, than you can start a tournament. It will show you you all matches.
If you abort the tournament you can start again without entering the teams again.
When starting again the matches will be recalculated. As the process is random, you should get different matches with every tournament.

You can also enter results in the WebApp, which will determine the ranking automatically from the results.
I only tested the App from Mac and iPad, but it's HTML5/Javascript, so there is no reason why it wouldn't run in any modern browser.

The app is very impressive but I don't really see the point, if it was a singles competition aimed at playing each nationality then fine but this is billed as a team competition.
IMO a far simpler route would be rd 1 Germany vs UK, France vs Sweden etc all players from each country play the others from the other country with the actual matchups of the 4 players determined randomly.
- less complicated
- means your are playing as a team
- can see how you are doing as a team easily
- makes it more fun. If you know how you need your team to do and how your nearest competition in the standings need to do then you can see as they compete in 4 games that directly affect 2 countries. The way the app works seems to me to be a singles competition with the points then added up as a team rather than focusing on the team element

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 Post subject: Re: European Epic Championship Berlin 27th/28th of Sept. 201
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:36 am 
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Steve54 wrote:
The app is very impressive but I don't really see the point, if it was a singles competition aimed at playing each nationality then fine but this is billed as a team competition.
IMO a far simpler route would be rd 1 Germany vs UK, France vs Sweden etc all players from each country play the others from the other country with the actual matchups of the 4 players determined randomly.
- less complicated
- means your are playing as a team
- can see how you are doing as a team easily
- makes it more fun. If you know how you need your team to do and how your nearest competition in the standings need to do then you can see as they compete in 4 games that directly affect 2 countries. The way the app works seems to me to be a singles competition with the points then added up as a team rather than focusing on the team element

I have also been pondering this. I agree with Steve I'd rather see more focus on the team part of the event. What Steve proposes above sounds good. I'd prefer team match ups.
It would work best if we get 6 teams or more. 5 teams could also do match ups with the last round seeing the the two top teams in a final (but ofc new player match ups within the teams). Your system Brumbear is probably better if there's only 4 teams.

Cheers
Erik


Last edited by Borka on Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: European Epic Championship Berlin 27th/28th of Sept. 201
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:57 am 
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Borka wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
The app is very impressive but I don't really see the point, if it was a singles competition aimed at playing each nationality then fine but this is billed as a team competition.
IMO a far simpler route would be rd 1 Germany vs UK, France vs Sweden etc all players from each country play the others from the other country with the actual matchups of the 4 players determined randomly.
- less complicated
- means your are playing as a team
- can see how you are doing as a team easily
- makes it more fun. If you know how you need your team to do and how your nearest competition in the standings need to do then you can see as they compete in 4 games that directly affect 2 countries. The way the app works seems to me to be a singles competition with the points then added up as a team rather than focusing on the team element

I have also been pondering this question. I agree with Steve i'd rather see more focus on the team part of the event. What Steve proposes above sounds good. I'd prefer team match ups.
It would work best if we get 6 teams or more. 5 teams could also do match ups with the last round seeing the the two top teams in a final (but ofc new player match ups within the teams). Your system Brumbear is probably better if there's only 4 teams.

Cheers
Erik

Well it's also that if there are large numbers of teams then they won't all be able to play against each other.

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 Post subject: Re: European Epic Championship Berlin 27th/28th of Sept. 201
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:03 am 
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Kyrt wrote:
Well it's also that if there are large numbers of teams then they won't all be able to play against each other.

Yeah that's true. But that's true anyway with the current system. Each player will miss out on playing one or more teams if there 7 or more teams attending.

What I mean is. I know that brumbaers system will maximize the number of different nationalities playing, but there will be no difference for the individual player as they would still play only five nationalities. What Steve and I suggest would increase the team event part of the fun I think.


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 Post subject: Re: European Epic Championship Berlin 27th/28th of Sept. 201
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:29 am 
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Borka wrote:
Kyrt wrote:
Well it's also that if there are large numbers of teams then they won't all be able to play against each other.

Yeah that's true. But that's true anyway with the current system. Each player will miss out on playing one or more teams if there 7 or more teams attending.

What I mean is. I know that brumbaers system will maximize the number of different nationalities playing, but there will be no difference for the individual player as they would still play only five nationalities. What Steve and I suggest would increase the team event part of the fun I think.

Sure, I'm just pointing out a downside, which is that you could have a team win the tournament without anyone in it playing anyone in the second placed team.

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 Post subject: Re: European Epic Championship Berlin 27th/28th of Sept. 201
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:49 am 
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Guys, I am sure there are many alternative mechanisms possible e.g. F1 racing, Gymnastic or martial art competitions and PGA golf tournaments. Isn't this up to the local organiser to some extent?


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 Post subject: Re: European Epic Championship Berlin 27th/28th of Sept. 201
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:11 am 
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Ginger wrote:
Guys, I am sure there are many alternative mechanisms possible e.g. F1 racing, Gymnastic or martial art competitions and PGA golf tournaments. Isn't this up to the local organiser to some extent?

Nothing here that's not constructive and aimed at making it the best event possible

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 Post subject: Re: European Epic Championship Berlin 27th/28th of Sept. 201
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:19 am 
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Steve54 wrote:
Ginger wrote:
Guys, I am sure there are many alternative mechanisms possible e.g. F1 racing, Gymnastic or martial art competitions and PGA golf tournaments. Isn't this up to the local organiser to some extent?

Nothing here that's not constructive and aimed at making it the best event possible

Yeah what Steve said (again :) ).

I would definitely go to the event with the current system, just wanted to suggest how to make it better (IMHO). In the end it's up to Brumbaer and his german team and what they think is best.


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