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EPIC UK is Here!

 Post subject: EPIC UK is Here!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:04 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 27 Jan. 2009, 18:45 )

Quote: (Ottermatthew @ 27 Jan. 2009, 18:21 )

So all EPIC tournaments are using EPIC UK rules.

@Zombocom

EPIC UK has to answer the wishes of it's current customers. They want new balanced lists for tournament events. I'm sorry but from what many tournament players have seen (and reported back to me) from NETERC the lists produced arn't that ... and how can they, none of the NETERC people play in any EPIC tournaments within the UK.

So basically you have the monopoly, so you choose what goes. I get that, I opt out.

Several of the netERC army champions are regular UK tournament attendees. TRC for example.

What difference does it make whether they play in UK based tournaments or not? If the game is the same, the environment makes no difference. Why are games played ouytside of the UK (or in the UK but not at tournaments) irrelevant for determining balance? I'm sure you don't intend to sound xenophobic, but that's how it comes across.

You think lists that are vastly playtested and considered balanced internationally aren't balanced for UK tournaments. Do you genuinely think closed lists that are far less playtested are more likely to be balanced?

They aren't closed lists just developed by those they are relevant to - without all the shouting and hyperbole.

2 NetERC members come regularily to tournaments - myself and Tiny-Tim both of whom are on the Epic UK comittee.

As to opting out of tournaments - you have never been to one and have made clear your disdain for tournament play so i don't see the difference now.

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 Post subject: EPIC UK is Here!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:06 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 27 Jan. 2009, 19:00 )

With NetERC the Dark Eldar would *shrug*.

Which is completely irrelevant as the NetERC changes have never been adopted by UK tournaments. I personally like the DA list but it is let down by the other lists.

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 Post subject: EPIC UK is Here!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:10 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 27 Jan. 2009, 19:04 )

They aren't closed lists just developed by those they are relevant to - without all the shouting and hyperbole.

2 NetERC members come regularily to tournaments - myself and Tiny-Tim both of whom are on the Epic UK comittee.

As to opting out of tournaments - you have never been to one and have made clear your disdain for tournament play so i don't see the difference now.

Surely they are relevant to anyone interested in going to tournaments, not just the regulars?

I have been to other game tournaments, and have never "made clear my disdain for tournament play". Please don't make up "facts" about me.

In fact, when I first checked out the Epic UK website today, I was intregued by the tournament schedule and was considering attending several. It's only when I noticed the list issue that I become disenfranchised.

I presume you'll be resigning your netERC army champion post?




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 Post subject: EPIC UK is Here!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:14 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 27 Jan. 2009, 19:06 )

Quote: (Hena @ 27 Jan. 2009, 19:00 )

With NetERC the Dark Eldar would *shrug*.

Which is completely irrelevant as the NetERC changes have never been adopted by UK tournaments. I personally like the DA list but it is let down by the other lists.

All the NetERC lists are more balanced than the official seigemasters list

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 Post subject: EPIC UK is Here!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:24 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 27 Jan. 2009, 19:14 )

Quote: (Steve54 @ 27 Jan. 2009, 19:06 )

Quote: (Hena @ 27 Jan. 2009, 19:00 )

With NetERC the Dark Eldar would *shrug*.

Which is completely irrelevant as the NetERC changes have never been adopted by UK tournaments. I personally like the DA list but it is let down by the other lists.

All the NetERC lists are more balanced than the official seigemasters list

I was referring to the Necron+Minervan lists

A common opinion is that the NetERC siege list is, in some ways, worse than the official.

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 Post subject: EPIC UK is Here!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:28 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 27 Jan. 2009, 19:10 )

Quote: (Steve54 @ 27 Jan. 2009, 19:04 )

They aren't closed lists just developed by those they are relevant to - without all the shouting and hyperbole.

2 NetERC members come regularily to tournaments - myself and Tiny-Tim both of whom are on the Epic UK comittee.

As to opting out of tournaments - you have never been to one and have made clear your disdain for tournament play so i don't see the difference now.

Surely they are relevant to anyone interested in going to tournaments, not just the regulars?

I have been to other game tournaments, and have never "made clear my disdain for tournament play". Please don't make up "facts" about me.

In fact, when I first checked out the Epic UK website today, I was intregued by the tournament schedule and was considering attending several. It's only when I noticed the list issue that I become disenfranchised.

I presume you'll be resigning your netERC army champion post?

On the basis of lists you haven't yet seen? Odd

If the NetERC committee asked me then Yes but I can't see that it is any of your business.

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 Post subject: EPIC UK is Here!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:29 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 27 Jan. 2009, 19:24 )

I was referring to the Necron+Minervan lists

The Necron list is a vast improvement over the old lists... what are specific problems that are seen with it?

A common opinion is that the NetERC siege list is, in some ways, worse than the official.


Could you please share the ways in which it's seen as worse?  Isn't TRC part of the EpicUK scene?  Have these concerns been brought to his attention?

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 Post subject: EPIC UK is Here!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:39 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 27 Jan. 2009, 19:28 )

On the basis of lists you haven't yet seen? Odd

If the NetERC committee asked me then Yes but I can't see that it is any of your business.

The content of the lists is entirely irrelevant to me, what bothers me is the intentional split of the Epic community.

The reason I asked about your NetERC position is because the defined role of the NetERC is to develop epic lists for use in tournaments worldwide. It is clear from your posts here and role within Epic UK that you no longer share these aims.

A lot of effort is clearly going into this, but if those efforts were combined with the NetERC's work then we could come up with lists that everyone is happy with, not just one set per tournament organiser.




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 Post subject: EPIC UK is Here!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:42 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 27 Jan. 2009, 19:39 )

The reason I asked about your NetERC position is because the defined role of the NetERC is to develop epic lists for use in tournaments worldwide. It is clear from your posts here and role within Epic UK that you no longer share these aims.

Zombocom, I'm going to politely ask you to refrain from pursuing this line; it's not constructive or helpful in the slightest.  This issue, if it even is one, will be dealt with privately, not in an open forum.

Thanks.

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 Post subject: EPIC UK is Here!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:42 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 27 Jan. 2009, 19:39 )

A lot of effort is clearly going into this, but if those efforts were combined with the NetERC's work then we could come up with lists that everyone is happy with, not just one set per tournament organiser.

Zombocom, *this* line of inquiry, I *do* like.   :agree:




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 Post subject: EPIC UK is Here!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:45 pm 
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Fair enough.

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 Post subject: EPIC UK is Here!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:02 pm 
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Quote: (Rug @ 27 Jan. 2009, 12:09 )

I wish you knew how seriously Matt takes the views of those who attend his events- this is the will of the majority.

But this is rule by a different 'majority'; you're trying to go from the current model of publically open, ongoing international development, to one decided in private by a smaller group of UK individuals. There may be problems and frustratingly slow progress in some areas with the existing system, but I need to be convinced this paradigm shift in development is the best way to proceed for epic or the wider community - as yet I'm really not.

The way this has been introduced and handled seems terribly secretive and cliquey too - that the official Army Champions set up to develop the lists have not been involved or at least informed before now seems crazy to me, while cutting out all the talented and enthusiastic people here from the process hurts the results I feel and just feels a little like a slap in the face to all the passionate developers who have or could contribute their time and energies. It wouldn't be what you intended but in the brief time since this has been announced you have had an individual and a gaming group put off attending tournaments now who otherwise would have, which is sad.

Yes tournament going players know epic Very well, but exactly how much time at tournaments do people really spend debating rules modifications? My own experience is that of tournaments are busy enough with playing and socialising. An online forum where people can contribute and discuss at any time and one that it is open to player groups from over the world seems to me a much better and more logical supporting method to playtest and balance lists for tournaments and everyone.

If you guys coming up with this have issues/suggested changes with the lists why not discuss them publically here and have input rather than total control? You should
definitely at least take feedback from people here before finalising your lists, I can see you not wanting to go properly public with them but feedback on clearly marked beta listed by people very practised in list development could be very useful to you. Epic needs us to contribute and work together and not further fragment, duplicate and muddy the waters.

Apologies if some of this comes across quite negative, I am very passionate about Epic as I suspect you and all of us are here and this has all just come out of the blue. I will keep an open mind and hope for the best and that common ground can be found and better communication ensue, but at the moment I’m sceptical of the merits and the ways it’s been/being handled – if I’m wrong please do persuade/reassure me!

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