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ERC Representation
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:07 pm 
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P.S @E&C: Why so offensive? I hope you manage to visit us some day.


I probably will at some point, sorry to be so abrasive yesterday, as you can see by my post above, my experience with tournaments to date has not been good.* :)



* I also went to a 'conflict' tournament once, and had 3 good games, while 1 game was the single worst I've ever played.

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Mephiston
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:53 pm 
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Well your last chance this year is the Dragon Slayers GT, last weekend in October.

5 games over 2 days in sunny Mansfield ;)
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Moscovian
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:44 pm 
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(Markconz @ Sep. 04 2007,04:11)
QUOTE

(pixelgeek @ Sep. 03 2007,14:57)
QUOTE

(Markconz @ Aug. 31 2007,04:58)
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You are assuming there is an ERC actually capable of achieving something concrete?

The ERC is currently suffering from a fairly major roadblock and once that roadblock is removed things should move along quite well.

If you want something done about this then email Andy and ask him to move on this as nothing is going to get done unless someone official at SG make a decision to change the ERC.

As I understand it, unfortunately this approach has not produced any practical results to date ?:(

I believe PG made this comment echoing one of mine made on the SG thread here. ?I made this post over at SG for several different reasons.
1. To keep people from publicly bashing Greg Lane. ?While many of you know Greg only online as the-guy-who-isn't-getting-anything-done, I actually have met him. ?He is a very nice person and I don't want people saying things like he is dragging his heels or such when we really don't know what is going on in his life.
2. To point out to Andy that Greg really isn't getting anything done. ?Andy is way out of touch with Epic, folks. ?Face it. ?If you want him to be involved you have to email him directly. ?To paraphrase PG, it doesn't matter why Greg isn't getting it done, only that it isn't getting done. ?For those of you who feel you need the crutch of a corporate endorsement of the Epic rules (i.e. the ERC in its current form) then this is your best avenue to be heard. ?If enough people complain I think Andy could make the appropriate changes.
3. To illuminate the underlying problem with the current ERC. ?My personal feeling is that Epic will die unless we take control of the ERC process. ?What better way to show that than have dozens of people email Andy and have him do NOTHING to fix the problem? ?If I am wrong then Andy will stir up the ERC or get a new one. ?We win. ?If I am right it should show all of you that we are wasting our time with Andy and SG.

Let me pose a question to you folks to illustrate a point. ?How many Tau players here actually play the Forgeworld printed list? ?I already know the answer (and so does Andy for that matter otherwise Cybershadow's list wouldn't be in the Experimental section of the SG site). ?Why would you endorse this experimental list when there is an OFFICIAL PRINTED LIST put out by a GW company? ?The answer is because CS's list is better. ?It is better because it has a champion who carea about it and takes feedback from the people who play it and applies that feedback the best he can to update the list.

Now take that example and enlarge it to the game of Epic as a whole. ?What do you think will prosper better? ?An ERC that has virtually no support of the players and only gets things done when prodded for YEARS? ?Or an ERC that is elected by the playing community and served by people who want to participate?

SG's seal of approval will mean little to nothing if we can build a new and effective ERC here. ?While the tournament scene is important, how many of those tournaments are organized by GW? ?In time the tourney organizers will grow to use the Tactical Command ruleset and armylists. ?And while I disagree with E&C's made up figure of 0.01%  :p of the Epic community participating in tournaments, I think it is a small percentage overall. ?Not enough to hinge the future of Epic on, for sure. ?The primary support needs to be put on the community, the friendly games, the locally organized tournaments. ?
And Andy and SG will either recognize it or ignore it as they have done with everything else in the past. ?My hope is at some future point GW will take back control of Epic. ?But they need to show an active interest in us. ?Just as in previous editions, SG will seek playtesters to give them feedback and the community here will be poised and ready to show GW what we've done.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:56 pm 
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Tiny Tim:  What issues do you feel are being ignored?  In most of the debates I can recall, it seems you and I have had very similar opinions, mostly with minor variations.

Steve 54:  Same question.  What concerns have tournaments brought to light that you feel were brushed off?

Personally, I very much like to see tournament results.  I put high stock in the results, especially when experimental or relatively "new" lists are pitted against those considered more balanced.  They provide not only feedback of player perception but also a larger than normal statistical sampling to go with those perceptions.  I thought a good example was the discussion on the Black Legion list that was precipitated by recent tournament results.

Of course, that's more directed towards army list issues than core rules, but I think it's the same idea.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:57 pm 
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I've emailed Jervis directly on this issue.

I confidently expect nothing to happen. :)

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Markconz
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:57 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Sep. 04 2007,13:44)
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To keep people from publicly bashing Greg Lane.  While many of you know Greg only online as the-guy-who-isn't-getting-anything-done, I actually have met him.  He is a very nice person and I don't want people saying things like he is dragging his heels or such when we really don't know what is going on in his life.

To paraphrase PG, it doesn't matter why Greg isn't getting it done, only that it isn't getting done.

All true. Greg's been around and involved online since the yahoo Epic group in the 90's back when I was a young 'un.  I've always maintained that what he has come up with has been good stuff - it's just so slow in coming.

All this is also why I have avoided joining the public calls for overthrow or mutiny etc at SG.  I personally don't feel comfortable going down that route in this situation even if there is justification for such a shakeup.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:04 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Sep. 04 2007,06:44)
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1. To keep people from publicly bashing Greg Lane.  While many of you know Greg only online as the-guy-who-isn't-getting-anything-done, I actually have met him.  He is a very nice person and I don't want people saying things like he is dragging his heels or such when we really don't know what is going on in his life.

At this point what is or is not going on in his life is irrelevant. The time where we could all wait is long, long gone and we now need to move on and get this job done.

He has had more than enough time to realise that he can't make the deadlines he assigned himself and should have stepped down when could or reassigned to the work

He has done neither and so I don't know that its fair to ask for some understanding in this regard.

I know Greg as well and while I share the sympathy with his potential situation but there comes a time when you have to relinquish control of a project when it becomes patently obvious that you can't finish it.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:20 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Sep. 04 2007,06:44)
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SG's seal of approval will mean little to nothing if we can build a new and effective ERC here

Out of all of the people I know locally who play Epic I am the only one who is even aware of this website so while it has a large audience don't let that make you think that official changes won't trump anything you do here.

I'm not trying to be insulting but if you want the game to progress then you need to push SG to get this resolved so that there are official changes for every Epic player and everyone is on an even footing with regard to rules.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:34 pm 
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If they aren't aware of this game that just means we need to push it more with the people we know.  Another way to continue to grow the TacCom membership is to continuously refer people from SG forum and Warseer to related threads here.  Take the extra few minutes to find the related thread for them and help them out.  This not only builds up TacCom's reputation but builds community in general.  Of course, this happens all the time, but I think people will notice when every thread refers to this website.  

And I didn't find your posting insulting at all.  I simply disagree.  IMO counting on SG to do anything at this point is a waste of effort.  But by all means try and prove me wrong! :)

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:43 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Sep. 04 2007,10:34)
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And I didn't find your posting insulting at all. ?I simply disagree. ?IMO counting on SG to do anything at this point is a waste of effort. ?But by all means try and prove me wrong! :)

It isn't a reference to what SG can or cannot do. The issue is that even if TC does come up with some sort of definitive work it won't be official, it won't be on the SG site and it won't get used by a majority of Epic gamers.

Sad fact of life. The SG site is where people get funnelled to and any changes need to be there so everyone can get them.

I hope that there can be some action on this issue soon

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Moscovian
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:52 pm 
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(Hena @ Sep. 04 2007,13:18)
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I agree with pixelgeek. Greg can be the greatest person ever lived. But he should come out and say that I cannot finish this in any small timeframe. And give up the position in order for others to do it.

No disagreement here, Hena.  I am in full support of Greg stepping down or getting it in gear.  I only include that #1 point because despite the fact that everyone (including me) is frustrated with the lack of progress we should all just keep it in perspective.

FYI I emailed Andy and haven't heard a thing.  Greg's emails regarding the ERC progress, while friendly, are virtual cut-n-pastes of the same message I got from him 3 months ago, and 6 months ago.

But getting back to the Rules Review that Markconz has done... I pointed this out to some of you privately but I'll make my conern publicly known.  Despite the fact that Markconz is going to be putting out a fine well needed product here, it will undoubtedly begin to fracture the community.  It is the rules set that was promised us.  It is simply better than what we have.  Some people will use it, others will not.

The only way I see to avoid that is to either GIVE it to Andy and see what he does (a big roll of the dice IMO) or to support it independently of SG.  We might get lucky - Andy allowed that huge 128 page Blood Bowl document to be hosted on SG so maybe he'd do the same with this.  But he could reject it outright, or send it to Greg for his careful review, or worse.

And what of all the things people will be putting out with Dark Realm / Exodus Wars proxies?  They don't stand a chance of making it to SG's vault.  Those things have a much better chance of being supported here.  Yet another good reason to just part ways now.  So long and thanks for all the fish.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:07 pm 
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Rug, I am not sure of your point. ?Can you clarify please? ?Personally, I meant local tournaments to be ones that are simply not organized by GW. ?My one time organizing a tourney had people from five different states (I think Corey drove 8 hours to get to it).




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