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ERC Representation
pixelgeek
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:57 pm 
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(Markconz @ Aug. 31 2007,04:58)
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You are assuming there is an ERC actually capable of achieving something concrete?

The ERC is currently suffering from a fairly major roadblock and once that roadblock is removed things should move along quite well.

If you want something done about this then email Andy and ask him to move on this as nothing is going to get done unless someone official at SG make a decision to change the ERC.

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Steve54
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:12 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 03 2007,14:06)
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There's one thing that needs to be remembered; The 'tournament scene' is the single least important section of the Epic-playing world.

The most important 'scene' are the 'friendly gamers'.

Cheers. :)

In my opinion the tournament scene is extremely useful in highlighting problems and testing lists. When players only play in their own 'groups' they only experience the tactics/playing style preferences of their particular small group.

For example at Open War 8 there were 4 different BL armies all played in a completely different style.

The views of the tournament scene in the UK are largely ignored/brushed off at the moment and the viewpoints that seem to be accepted are those who shout the loudest.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:03 pm 
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In my opinion the tournament scene is extremely useful in highlighting problems and testing lists.


They can be, but they're still only about 0.01% of Epic gamers*, and that should be remembered.


* Completely made-up figure, but likely to be fairly accurate. :)

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Chroma
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:18 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 03 2007,18:03)
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They can be, but they're still only about 0.01% of Epic gamers*, and that should be remembered.

I would say the Tournament *Scenario* is the most common form of EPIC played, probably by a very wide margin. ?Not necessarily in actual Tournaments and such, but as a "style" of play. ?One rarely hears of people playing "Assault" or "Escalating Engagement" or "custom" scenarios. (Speaking of which, the penultimate "Red Queen Rising" campaign game was played last weekend... only the Endgame is left... and I'll post 'em soon!)

That's *specifically* what the "army lists" are made for, and even in "friendly games" stuff crops up, so that should be the "focus" of development.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:36 pm 
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I too play the tournament scenario most of the time... that doesn't mean that I'm part of the 'tournament scene' (The 0.01% of Epic players who go to tournaments).

That said, tournament players do tend to be very good at finding the broken elements of army lists and exploiting the hell out of them, so of course they should be listened to.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:01 pm 
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350000 epicplayers in the world? If there are more than 10000 i would be greatly surprised.

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Ginger
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:25 pm 
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At the risk of being naive, just what would a re-constituted ERC do, and where, and with what authority?

I for one am extremely glad that Markonz has started the task of inserting all the various corrections and proposed changes into the text - and has taken a no-nonsense approach rather than waiting for total consensus.

While the community as such has always comprised fans (or fanatics) enthusiastically proposing some point or other, consensus is hard to achieve through recognised bodies. Without this - well, the result is similar to the 'healthy debate' of the last few posts. Given the nature of GW, we should probably think ourselves lucky they have continued to permit the use of the SG boards for Epic discussions. ?And awkward though it may be, I suspect we should still try to get GW (or SG) to recognise the ERC (perhaps in some new form), together with an appropriate mandate and an agreed modus operandi. Equally, given the nature of the game, I suspect we should still consider how it is placed in the commercial world of GW / 40K. Over the years, Neal has given valuable guidance and insight (where permitted) in this area, and we would be very unwise to ignore this - at least until the commercial position of the rules etc is understood.

So, how to proceed from here??

Firstly, let?s get behind Markonz to sort out the rules - merging the contributions of the French, Germans, Finns and other nationalities etc into a single set of rules. This includes reducing the FAQ to an acceptable minimum in a single repository rather than the confsuing situation at present.

Next, where possible we should try to continue the army champion principle, but recognise that this is probably the hardest aspect to control or fix. I suspect any ideas how to moderate the excesses here would be gratefully received. The army lists must be secondary to the rules which bind it all together, but they must be kept alive (and I hope that is what the SG competition may achieve in part). However, given the state of things, can we find enough champions who are not disillusioned by the whole process?

Finally, if we are to make any progress at all, we must recognise that ?there are people behind the keyboards - with a very twisted sense of reality perhaps :p ?- but people every bit as dedicated to their hobby as we are. Let?s try to find compromise where possible, encourage questions and developing ideas - the EPIC community will only survive and grow by working together. Constant bickering - even over trivial points - will continue to erode the EPIC community to the point of extinction.

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Mojarn Piett
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:16 am 
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Let?s try to find compromise where possible, encourage questions and developing ideas - the EPIC community will only survive and grow by working together. Constant bickering - even over trivial points - will continue to erode the EPIC community to the point of extinction.


This is the single most useful comment I've seen so far, bar none. And one, painful as it is to admit, I should probably try very hard to remember...  :blush:

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Steve54
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:13 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 03 2007,18:36)
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That said, tournament players do tend to be very good at finding the broken elements of army lists and exploiting the hell out of them, so of course they should be listened to.

Your knowledge of epic tournaments is amazing for somebody who doesn't come - I think you would find that, virtually without exception, the epic tournament scene is played in a very good, friendly spirit without the rules-lawyering and loophole exploiting of other systems.

Personally I would rather have more credence given to the views of the people there as they have played a wide range of players with different styles, lists and ideas than people who play the same couple of players all the time or think we are playing small scale 40k.

0.01% - I wish epic was that successful

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Steve54
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:17 am 
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(Ginger @ Sep. 03 2007,21:25)
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Firstly, let?s get behind Markonz to sort out the rules - merging the contributions of the French, Germans, Finns and other nationalities etc into a single set of rules. This includes reducing the FAQ to an acceptable minimum in a single repository rather than the confsuing situation at present.

Yes Markconz is doing a great job with the rulebook but I, and many others, think several of the rules changes to solve minor problems create major problems themselves.

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Markconz
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:11 am 
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(pixelgeek @ Sep. 03 2007,14:57)
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(Markconz @ Aug. 31 2007,04:58)
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You are assuming there is an ERC actually capable of achieving something concrete?

The ERC is currently suffering from a fairly major roadblock and once that roadblock is removed things should move along quite well.

If you want something done about this then email Andy and ask him to move on this as nothing is going to get done unless someone official at SG make a decision to change the ERC.

As I understand it, unfortunately this approach has not produced any practical results to date  :(

Also as Ginger says...


At the risk of being naive, just what would a re-constituted ERC do, and where, and with what authority?


....on top of my own questions of:
1. How long will it take for any process that does get started to produce some concrete useful results?
2. What guarantees are there that it will actually work any better than the current ERC in any case?

I want rules, I want a reasonable deadline on when I have them. Also I don't just want some scrappy errata pdf's or army list files, I want all the main rules and army lists updated with changes integrated into them.

Hence I decided to just go ahead and do what needed to be done.

If the ERC does something fine and good. If not then I will have rules, as will others involved, and the position for changing the current dysfunctional system will be stronger.

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Markconz
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:03 am 
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(Steve54 @ Sep. 04 2007,07:17)
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(Ginger @ Sep. 03 2007,21:25)
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Firstly, let?s get behind Markonz to sort out the rules - merging the contributions of the French, Germans, Finns and other nationalities etc into a single set of rules. This includes reducing the FAQ to an acceptable minimum in a single repository rather than the confsuing situation at present.

Yes Markconz is doing a great job with the rulebook but I, and many others, think several of the rules changes to solve minor problems create major problems themselves.

Well if there are many of you like you say and you want to use the book, then start discussion, convince people here of your case and get things changed.

I haven't gone against community majority opinion. I haven't gone against what ERC changes exist.  I could have just stuck in the preferences of my own playgroup and have been done with it by now. However, I decided to open up the process to international feedback here to try and tune the handbook to that (but not against the ERC, and with Neal as most active ERC member having final say on all matters).

Don't get the wrong idea and think I chose that approach for unselfish reasons either!  :alien: Reason enough is that I expected that an open international development process here would produce something qualitatively far better than a more limited development process (even if it takes an extra couple of months to do so). So far I think it has been the correct decision, and you are welcome to be part of that process or not as you like. On that note I would particularly like to hear from other tourni players as that's where balancing considerations are often most evident.

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Ginger
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:06 am 
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(Steve54 @ Sep. 04 2007,08:17)
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Yes Markconz is doing a great job with the rulebook but I, and many others, think several of the rules changes to solve minor problems create major problems themselves.

Perhaps we could discuss these problems in this thread

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:01 pm 
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(Steve54 @ Sep. 04 2007,08:13)
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(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 03 2007,18:36)
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That said, tournament players do tend to be very good at finding the broken elements of army lists and exploiting the hell out of them, so of course they should be listened to.

Your knowledge of epic tournaments is amazing for somebody who doesn't come - I think you would find that, virtually without exception, the epic tournament scene is played in a very good, friendly spirit without the rules-lawyering and loophole exploiting of other systems.

I will conceed that my experience of GW-game tournaments has been coloured by my experience of the Warhammer Fantasy Grand Tournament (Which I ended up in due to being given a ticket for free).

Eight fun games, and four hellish games against steriotypical 'noids (All adults who played the game like petulant children).

I placed 104th out of 450... and would have placed higher but I had no intention of bearding out (Which was nessesary to get any higher, I'm sorry to say, as the whiff of processed milk got stronger the higher you got).


Personally I would rather have more credence given to the views of the people there as they have played a wide range of players with different styles, lists and ideas than people who play the same couple of players all the time or think we are playing small scale 40k.


I know and game against around 10 different Epic players of varying abilities and armies (I think we cover almost every army between us).

0.01% - I wish epic was that successful

None of the players in my group have ever gone to an Epic tournament. (One of them came 4th in the 40k Grand Tournament three years ago, and has since sworn off 40k almost completely, the experience was that sour!).




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