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UK EPIC "Championship"

 Post subject: UK EPIC "Championship"
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:11 pm 
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Quote: (Mephiston @ 24 Aug. 2008, 20:42 )

Gavin, I've played 3 different armies, Guard, Eldar and Black Legion.

You have indeed Dave, getting 4 points each for the Eldar and BL after starting with the Imperial Guard

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 Post subject: UK EPIC "Championship"
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:27 pm 
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Or more to the point, what army list someone was playing and how the game went is a lot more important than raw data.

The Britcon AAR has a few instances of game reports that appear to be games lost due to bad dice more than anything... losing a game like that is less about the army lists than sheer chance.

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 Post subject: UK EPIC "Championship"
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:28 pm 
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Quote: (Mephiston @ 24 Aug. 2008, 12:42 )

Now the stats may not mean much but they are there for people to look at. Batreps are always subjective too generally documented from one sides view.

Batreps provide context and army lists. something that stats don't.

Stats aren't irrelevant but AARs are, IMO, better gauges of the issues involved in a game

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 Post subject: UK EPIC "Championship"
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:35 pm 
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Quote: (pixelgeek @ 24 Aug. 2008, 13:28 )

Stats aren't irrelevant but AARs are, IMO, better gauges of the issues involved in a game

For example, a Chaos player getting three wins in a tournament is one thing. If that player was me that would be another factor entirely :-)

If a player wins three games in a tournament that is interesting, if it is TRC or someone else that has a real skill for tweaking lists that take advantage of problems in an army list then I want to see their list to see what they are taking and seeing if it is problematic.

Raw stats don't provide any of that info

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 Post subject: UK EPIC "Championship"
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 10:52 pm 
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PG - the points system is listed in the third post of this thread, and is experimental in that we put together something based on the F1 scoring system - and I said as much in that post. Equally we are using the same scoring system for awarding points per game across all the tournaments

As Mephiston says, the tournaments are run using the standard lists without any modifications, so none of the proposed CSM mods are included. From memory, all the BL armies fielded around 9-10 daemons, at least one Feral, a minimum of 3x Obliterators, 1-2 Daemon Princes, 1-2 Chosen, 1-2 Retinues, 1-2 Forlorn Hopes and and usually some Wheels; so pretty much a similar format throughout.

As for interpreting the statistics and raw data, and given the knack of rolling poor dice that some people have, I am sure one can discount some of the results for various reasons. However, the fact remains that we have now played 5 competitions comprising some 21 rounds and 288 battles involving 35 people at one time or another.

So I stand by the statement that in that time, BL has done significantly better than the other races. While you can certainly put some of this success down to dice rolling (eg my 75% failed initiative against Steve Gullick), at this point the dice stats should be starting to even out a little. However, to-date they have won 29 and lost 18 and drawn 2 in the five tournaments - or a success rate of around 59% in 49 games, where the other armies success rates are in the range of 30%-45%, which is the reason why they are consistently in the top three positions in the five UK tournaments to-date.

And for what it is worth, I don't think anyone has been playing particularly 'tweaked ' lists, except possibly Mark Hargrave who fielded no less than 7x Obliterators in his 4000 point list for Britcon; nor is it down to the same players as there have been 6 people fielding BL armies in the 5 tournaments

(Modified to include WPS CC stats)




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 Post subject: UK EPIC "Championship"
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:10 pm 
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This page gives you a complete breakdown of the WPS CC Biggles.
UKEpicAChampionship WPS CC 08


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 Post subject: UK EPIC "Championship"
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:14 pm 
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The London results are interesting. 4 Black Legion armies took part. 2 placed in the top 5 and had war engines and two placed in the bottom half both of which had no war engines. IIRC all armies had at least one daemon prince and a varying amount of lesser daemons.


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 Post subject: UK EPIC "Championship"
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:31 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 24 Aug. 2008, 14:52 )

So I stand by the statement that in that time, BL has done significantly better than the other races.

I guess you've missed my point.

And since there is an effort to update the CSM list I'm not sure how important the data is for the CSM results. Even with some of the minimal changes we've suggested the list plays quite differently and hopefully before there is an major tournament we'll have a new list to test.

If people would actually get off their butts and test it that is :-)

Any luck testing that overpowered multi-DP list yet? :-)

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 Post subject: UK EPIC "Championship"
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:33 pm 
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Quote: (Mephiston @ 24 Aug. 2008, 15:14 )

The London results are interesting. 4 Black Legion armies took part. 2 placed in the top 5 and had war engines and two placed in the bottom half both of which had no war engines. IIRC all armies had at least one daemon prince and a varying amount of lesser daemons.

How many war engines? Does anyone have any army lists for them?

Its rather a known issue though isn't it? Its nice to get some confirmation (possibly) of the actual effect but seeing some army lists would be good.

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 Post subject: UK EPIC "Championship"
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:39 pm 
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For what it's worth, checking on the top eight players, only three have used BL at some point in the tournaments (Tim Hunt, Nathan Hoole and Steve Gullick). The point is really, where they have been used BL have had a high success rate, which is starting to look significant.

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 Post subject: UK EPIC "Championship"
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:56 pm 
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Quote: (Mephiston @ 24 Aug. 2008, 23:10 )

This page gives you a complete breakdown of the WPS CC Biggles.
UKEpicAChampionship WPS CC 08

Thanks - stats updated

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 Post subject: UK EPIC "Championship"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:14 am 
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Quote: (pixelgeek @ 24 Aug. 2008, 23:33 )

Quote: (Mephiston @ 24 Aug. 2008, 15:14 )

The London results are interesting. 4 Black Legion armies took part. 2 placed in the top 5 and had war engines and two placed in the bottom half both of which had no war engines. IIRC all armies had at least one daemon prince and a varying amount of lesser daemons.

How many war engines? Does anyone have any army lists for them?

Its rather a known issue though isn't it? Its nice to get some confirmation (possibly) of the actual effect but seeing some army lists would be good.

As I pointed out earlier, all the lists had 2-4 WE, typically 0-2 Ferals and 0-2 Wheels (you can see many of the lists in the various threads of the Tournaments forum). Recently people have started to field 2x Wheels as a single formation and BTS, because it is large (8DC) Resilient (with 4 shields) fast, and shooty.

Equally, the use of Forlorn Hope and Dreadclaws raises another question (which I will pose in the CSM thread).

However, you are right that these results are starting to confirm the points being raised in the CSM thread around the usual suspects (WE, Oblits, general costings etc). And as we cannot expect a 'formal' change in the list any time soon, I suspect that the trend is set to continue, not least because there is a marked reluctance to accept any "experimental" changes as doing so is considered unfair to the vast majority of people that do not haunt these boards.




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 Post subject: UK EPIC "Championship"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:58 am 
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It would be nice to 'reset' the table if Matt goes for the tweaks suggested. However any changes won't take place this year. Would be interesting to see some of the 'top' BL players try the tweaks and report on how the game went.

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 Post subject: UK EPIC "Championship"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:30 am 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 24 Aug. 2008, 16:14 )

And as we cannot expect a 'formal' change in the list any time soon...

I wouldn't be too sure of that.

In any case the tournament tweaks list can easily be amended to add a note that the Assault Co comes under the Titan/Aircraft limit and that should go a long way to fixing some of these WE heavy lists.




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 Post subject: UK EPIC "Championship"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:53 am 
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Quote: (Mephiston @ 24 Aug. 2008, 23:14 )

The London results are interesting. 4 Black Legion armies took part. 2 placed in the top 5 and had war engines and two placed in the bottom half both of which had no war engines. IIRC all armies had at least one daemon prince and a varying amount of lesser daemons.

Mine had no daemon prince - I dropped it after the CC as I felt it wasn't worth its points.

My London list

Retinue +pact,obliterator,defiler
Retinue +pact,obliterator
4 chosen +pact,obliterator
Bikes +pact
6 Raptors +pact
Forlorn hope +rhinos,pact
Feral
Feral
Feral
9 daemons

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