This might be a more viable list. It still has Reaver and Razorwing Spam, but now 8 x Talos allow for better close combat MW and 4+ RA fearless vehicle walkers. The 2 wraith gates ensure they get onto the field, and if the portable WG is lost they can protect the Blitz.

Individuals – 100
50 – Wraithgate
50 – Portable Wraithgate

Kalabite Formations – 850
400 – Coterie – Archon, 6 Incubi, 2 Wyches, 3 raiders, 2 Venoms
225 – Flotilla – 4 Ravagers
225 – Flotilla – 4 Ravagers

Partisans Formations – 1275
200 – Reavers – 6 Reavers
200 – Reavers – 6 Reavers
200 – Reavers – 6 Reavers
250 – Reavers – 6 Reavers, Sucubbus
425 – Talos - 8 Talos BTS

Spacecraft Titans and aircraft (max 1/3) – 800 points
200 – Razorwings – 2 Razorwing fighters
200 – Razorwings – 2 Razorwing fighters
200 – Razorwings – 2 Razorwing fighters
200 – Razorwings – 2 Razorwing fighters

_________________
6mm wargaming is just like 25mm wargaming with more units fitting on the same size table. Thus bigger games to get lost in and avoid the hassles of everyday living, and offerings for the dice gods.

From experience you should try:

Void Ravens - their barrage attack is amazing, a massive air threat.
Slavebringers - far superior to Vampire and also an air threat.
Scourages - ff and support masters able to make great use of cover.
Mandrakes - have a shopping list of abilities allowing all sorts of shenanigans and surprising staying power.
Vessels of Pain - great for prepping, very easy to use!

For most of these units you pay 25pts-50pts more than a cheaper equivalent but it's worth it imo and you can still keep your activation count high (13ish).

I've found that posing a massive air threat better than proactively trying to counter opponents air the most effective way of countering my opponent's aircraft, they're either forced on to CAP from where they can't pick on your vulnerable LVs and infantry, or they intercept, by which time the damage is done and your planes are tougher than your LVs....you may even then get a chance to intercept.

RugII very interesting. I do like the makdrakes. They might get some use in some of the lists I build.

The slavebringer now is part of the 1/3 slot, and has lost the talos transport. It is easily killed off in 2 shots, and and its weapons are now FXF with some at reduced range. I found an error. It does not have WE in its description only Bomber yet it has 2 DC (you might need to fix that Jim).

I never used Scourges much, as the 30cm dark lance has less effect in the game than you think. Once they are in terrain, enemy infantry and vehicle with longer range tend to kill them off. I find that squat infantry or a guardsman's autocannon, at range 45cm are far more of a deterrent even with the Scourges jump ability. It can be the thing that kills them off as well sometimes. A failed terrain test means they die, and they need to do this to move in and out of terrain like mounted infantry.

I am not sure about the void raven. I liked the old NETEA stats for the razorwing with its range 30cm MW3+ TK weapon, it now has stats similar to the old NetEA Raven. The range of the void mine on the Void Raven is too short for my liking. I think the cheaper razorwings will be my Aircraft of choice.

I actually found one ground based AA weapon in the new test DE list. It is the Tormentor Titan which gets 2 x range 30cm splinter missile shots. So a good reason to take it. Survivability, enemy have to face its medium ranged TK (1) weapons, its AA, and it has great TK (D3) close combat weapons. It still costs 500 points for a unit that has similar starts to a single Warhound titan, so not quite worth a pair of Warhound titans (before that is. The added AA weapon now makes it far more likely to be taken)

_________________
6mm wargaming is just like 25mm wargaming with more units fitting on the same size table. Thus bigger games to get lost in and avoid the hassles of everyday living, and offerings for the dice gods.

Hey Deb,
I would suggest exploring some of the devilish delivery methods that the DE list presents rather than being so linear about moving from one point of the table to the other.

Here are 5 lists i drew up this arvo. They aren't super optimised. They are just to give you an idea of different combos i have been thinking of playtesting. Webway Portal
Webway Portal

Portable Webway

Kabal Coterie 250
Dracon
4xIncubi
Archon
2xRaiders

Kabal Syndicate 250
6xWarriors
Dracon
3xRaiders

Kabal Syndicate 200
6xWarriors
3xRaiders

Haemonculi Coven 400

Amcient 2xHaemonculi & 4 wracks and 2 Grotesque
3xRaiders

Mandrake Throng 200
6xMandrakes

Scourge Flight 250
6xScourges

Heavy Barges 250
Vessel of Pain

Heavy Barges 250
Vessel of Pain

Heavy Barges 250
Vessel of Pain

Spacecraft 250

Torture Class Cruiser Transport

Razorwing Squadron 200
2xRazorwing fighters

Razorwing Squadron 200
2xRazorwing fighters

2nd list

Webway Portal
Webway Portal

Portable Webway

Kabal Coterie 350
Dracon
6xIncubi
Archon
3xRaiders

Kabal Syndicate 250
6xWarriors
Dracon
3xRaiders

Kabal Syndicate 200
6xWarriors
3xRaiders

Haemonculi Coven 400
Amcient 2xHaemonculi & 4 wracks and 2 Grotesque
3xRaiders

Mandrake Throng 200
6xMandrakes

Scourge Flight 250
6xScourges

Scourge Flight 250
6x scourges

Heavy Barges 250
Vessel of Pain

Heavy Barges 250
Vessel of pain

Tormentor 500
tormentor titan

Spacecraft 250
Torture Class Cruiser Transport

Razorwing Squadron 200
2xRazorwing fighters

Razorwing Squadron 200
2xRazorwing fighters

3rd list

Webway Portal
Webway Portal

Portable Webway

Kabal Coterie 250
Dracon
4xIncubi
Archon
2xRaiders

Kabal Syndicate 250
6xWarriors
Dracon
3xRaiders

Kabal Syndicate 200
6xWarriors
3xRaiders

Haemonculi Coven 400
Amcient 2xHaemonculi & 4 wracks and 2 Grotesque
3xRaiders

Mandrake Throng 200
6xMandrakes

Scourge Flight 250
6xScourges

Scourge Flight 250
6 x scourges

Talos 325
6 x talos

Executioner 500

Razorwing Squadron 200
2xRazorwing fighters

Razorwing Squadron 200
2xRazorwing fighters

4th list

Webway Portal
Webway Portal

Portable Webway

Kabal Coterie 250
Dracon
4xIncubi
Archon
2xRaiders

Kabal Syndicate 350
8xWarriors
Dracon
2xRaiders
4x venom



Kabal Syndicate 275

8xWarriors 3xRaiders
2x venoms

Talos 425
8 talos

Mandrake Throng 200
6xMandrakes

Scourge Flight 250
6xScourges

Scourge Flight 250
6 x scourges

Heavy Barges 250
Vessel of pain

Spacecraft 250
Torture Class Cruiser Transport

Razorwing Squadron 200
2xRazorwing fighters

Razorwing Squadron 200
2xRazorwing fighters

5th list

Webway Portal 50
Webway Portal

Kabal Coterie 250
Dracon
4xIncubi

Kabal Syndicate 200
6xWarriors
3xRaiders

Kabal Syndicate 200
6xWarriors
3xRaiders

Kabal Syndicate 300
8xWarriors
Dracon

Mandrake Throng 200
6xMandrakes

Mandrake Throng 200
6xMandrakes

Mandrake Throng 200
6xMandrakes

Mandrake Throng 200
6xMandrakes

Mandrake Throng 200
6xMandrakes

Mandrake Throng 200
6xMandrakes

Executor 500

Executor Landing Module

Razorwing Squadron 200
2xRazorwing fighter

Razorwing Squadron 200
2xRazorwing fighters





Cheers
Jim

I can see you did spam Mandrakes in one list, and you seem to use Syndicates which in my view are now not worth their points. I would rather use Flotillas. I would use mandrakes, but not 6 of them Perhaps a Wyches formation, and a Talos formation. Not sure if I want to use Haemonculi so much any more, even though they are fearless. I do not like the idea of Vessels of pain much any more, now that their weapons are FXF and their shadowfields have not been increased to account for the loss of regenerating them.

In list 1 you have gone over the 1/3 points, and unless you want the Grotesques to walk you need another raider in the Haemonculi covens.

Here is an alternative list, and it works to the Dark Eldar strengths as much as possible.
50 - Wraithgate

50 - Portable wraithgate

Kabals - 800 points
350 points - coterie - Archon, 6 incubi, 3 raiders
225 points - Flotilla - 4 ravagers
225 points - Flotilla - 4 ravagers

Partisans - 1275 points
200 - Mandrakes - 6 Mandrakes
250 points - reavers - Succubus, 6 reaver jetbikes
250 points - reavers - Succubus, 6 reaver jetbikes
325 points - Talos - 6 Talos
250 points - Wyches - Succubus 6 Wyches 3 raiders
or
250 points - Haemonculi - 2 Haemonculi, 4 wracks, 3 raiders

1/3 allocation 900 points
500 points - Titan - 1 Tormentor Titan [BTS]
200 Razorwings - 2 razorwings
200 Razorwings - 2 razorwings

This list is only 2975 points. It has a titan, 2 air craft squadrons, 2 basic flotillas to annoy enemy tanks and titans, the required coterie with 2 extra incubi to keep them in FF/CC, 2 reaver formations to grab objectives, or triple move to provide support in am engagement (providing I can get the engaging formation to activate after the reavers have moved). a choice of Haemonculi or Wyches for close combat all mounted in raiders, mandrakes to garrison, and talos to make sure an objective is held, or the enemy is removed from it. Also the list has 2 portals.

Here I have made sure I do not use Syndicates, Scourges, the executioner and Hellions all of which I find are not worth the points spent on them, or there is a formation that can do it better for the same cost.

This list is also more balanced

_________________
6mm wargaming is just like 25mm wargaming with more units fitting on the same size table. Thus bigger games to get lost in and avoid the hassles of everyday living, and offerings for the dice gods.

Hey Deb,

Yeah you are right about the heamonculi formation but i did add the points for the 4th Raider.
And my bad on the 1/3 titans and aircraft hah!
The mandrake spam list is written to see if the darkeldar list is broken if you have an army of fearless teleporters. Something that i think must be tested before it gains approval.

With regards to the shadowfields i wanted to bring them inline with the euk lists. They already provide a distinct advantage over imperial void shields in that they confer a -1 to hit so i dont think they also need to recharge. But happy to see how it goes during playtesting.

Cheers
Jim

Is testing the list also there to see if certain units have been nerfed and need improving? I mean the raider/Kalabite warrior mix. I know they are not meant to sit on objectives, as too many weapons ignore cover, and with just 6 units base, they will break, and then get killed off really quickly. Add the range 15cm AP weapons, and the enemy can just rush in and even if you are on overwatch, you only have say the front 1 or 2 units that can be in range when the enemy halt and FF you. If you are lucky/unlucky to get into close combat, then more units might fire overwatch, however with a CC of 5+ many dedicated close combat troops will own them.

In an assault, they will have to unload form their raiders to shoot, and this means they can not force a FF, as enemy will rush into base contact where possible. They used to sit on their transports and FF along with the raider, and benefit from the raiders 4+ save as they could not be targeted. They were killed off if it blew up, but you took the risk.

I do not like Scourges, not in epic anyway. Better in 40K any day. They get a range 30cm AT5+ Lance weapon, and their usual targets tanks generally have anywhere between 45 and 90 cm range weapons. They can not get close enough unless they risk a teleport. if you set up in cover enemy just avoid them with tanks, and send in massed infantry that sit at 45cm and shoot them till they break.

This feedback is from my own experiences using them against both marines and Guard armies.

I will test a spam list using the units, I consider to be the most nerfed or useless in the new (and even the older) list. Raiders, Warriors, Scourges, Barges, and Hellions. I will add in portals like you want, and might even try droppng in kalabite warriors via a slavebringer.

_________________
6mm wargaming is just like 25mm wargaming with more units fitting on the same size table. Thus bigger games to get lost in and avoid the hassles of everyday living, and offerings for the dice gods.

If you put the eaiders closer to the enemies than the warriors and block the path they can still force FF over CC. Thats a very common thing used with mixed formation with skimmers in assaults...

Scourges moves 30cm and can easily get in range of tanks to use their weapons. They're an awesome formation.

Wyches in Slavebringers are one of the best assault options available in Epic IMO.

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https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

Scourages don't need to take difficult terrain checks going in to and out of cover, they are jump infantry, not mounted. Even without dark lances they'd be an auto include in most EUK lists as they're fast, have teleport, and ff 3+. Their splinter cannons would still lay the critical BM.

Slavebringers have 4+ armour, 2DC, a shadow field, and 360degree AA.... the likelihood of being killed by two shots is very low....easily the second best air transport in the game after Thunderhawks....in many situations arguably better.

The bomber bring 4BP of Lance barrage to the table for 225pts... that's exceptional value regardless of the platform.... plus they're 4+ save fighter-bombers....

This list is very similar to the EUK list, the EUK stats page gives an excellent insight regarding exactly how this list will be used:

http://epic-uk.co.uk/ukepicachampionship/index.php

Hey Deb,
Playtests still focus on the changes from th euk list. I am pretty happy with the stability and balance of the euk list.

I tend to agree with mordoten and rugll on the units - especially tge scourges. I take them for the sweet teleport and spt fire they provide - Not necessarily how hard they are. Scourges combined with mandrakes and an alst formation almost ensures you will wipe out the formation. It's risky, but rewarding.

Cheers
Jim

I notice that none of your lists included the reaver jetbikes. I tend to include them in all my lists. Usually 2 squads of them. Pound for pound they are the unit most worth the points you spend on it. They can grab objectives very quickly, triple move 120cm to assist in an engage action, and can force enemy to FF them where the enemy are stronger in CC. They are also infantry so AT weapons can not hurt them, and they have a 4+ save.

I am starting to like the Tormentor as the 3 extra shields will compensate for the loss of shield regeneration. That and the addition of an AA weapon, means I will get more use out of them.

One thing though they wording on the Tormentors main weapons is confusing. It says 2 x Phantom Lance, and further along notes 2 x MW3+ TK(1). However in the Vessel of Pains weapon load out, it has only 1 Phantom Lance, and then notes 2 x MW3+ TK(1). Does this mean the tormentor has 4 attacks MW3+ TK(1), 2 for each Phantom Lance or only 2?

Only through testing the scourges will I decide if they are worth 250 points for 6. Mandrakes seem more viable as their rules allow them to garrison, first strike is good, and an invul save may help as well. They also have a nice Scout bubble

Strangely, I had one game where 2 thunderbolts on cap came in and shot my slavebringer. With 2 5+ AA shots each, they took out my shield, and of the 2 other shots that hit, the one I did not save caused a critical. Goodbye 4 x Talos and the Slavebringer. The odds can be quite good if the enemy has a lot of AA shots. Guard who set their Hydra batteries up well can make sure you have to run the gauntlet to get to their objectives, or prize units like artillery. 300 points gives 6 Hydras (2 formations) each Hydra has 2 x AA5+ shots. That means 12 5+ shots.

I am definitely not sold on Warriors especially in raiders.

I will make up a few lists. Each will have reavers in it though. In will look at testing Scourges, Mandrakes, the Tormentor Titan, Wyches, Haemonculi, Ravagers and Razorwings in the first few lists. Possibly Slavebringers and the executioner later on.

_________________
6mm wargaming is just like 25mm wargaming with more units fitting on the same size table. Thus bigger games to get lost in and avoid the hassles of everyday living, and offerings for the dice gods.

I thought jump infantry need to take DTT if they land in area terrain? We usually end up jumping next to terrain and use cautious moves to get into cover

You are correct, its explained in 2.1.7

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Well I've been playing that wrong for a while! Luckily it's a pretty common omission so it shouldn't have swayed too many games*

TBH my Scourages live in their Executioner though coming out only briefly for double actions and assaults! When they are out their usually placed to maximise support fire rather than cover. The evidence of how frequently they're used still stands.

On Reavers, they're not bad per se but they don't offer much other units can't do either cheaper, better, or with something else. Warriors give you more numbers, some shooting, better ff, skimmers to sit at the front and force ff in assaults as well as some 4+ armour, and they have better initiative. Scourages do prepping and supporting assaults far better. Unfortunately ff usually trumps cc, and Reavers are a skimming cc unit that has to rest for going into terrain where most other infantry loiter. The +1 to engage will help a lot!

I've never got Wraks and Grotesques to work very well