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Eldar v Marines 3K Net Epic Evolution Playtest

 Post subject: Re: Battle Report: Eldar v Marines 3K Alternative Rules Play
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:21 pm 
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Turn 3 conclusion:

Striking Scorpions surrounding the Land Speeder duly destroy it and breaking the first and only Marine company of the battle!

The capture of two objectives helps the Eldar cause but is nowhere near enough to win the battle.

As well as scoring points for destroying the Warlock Titan, the Marines also gained VPs for breaking a few other units: The Titan brought Turbo Laser Destructors to bear upon Swooping Hawks before they had a chance to get involved in the battle. The Warlock was overwhelmed by Assault Troops, and also the Howling Banshees were broken.

VPs:

Marines: 39VPs
Eldar: 25VPs

Frustratingly the Marines were left 1 point short of victory but with heavily depleted forces, the Eldar player conceded defeat.

We both greatly enjoyed playtesting the new systems and both agreed that we definitely are for playing NetEpic this way in future.

I'll post up further notes about how the new rules performed tomorrow night!

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 Post subject: Re: Battle Report: Eldar v Marines 3K Alternative Rules Play
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:28 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Turn 3 conclusion:

Striking Scorpions surrounding the Land Speeder duly destroy it and breaking the first and only Marine company of the battle!

The capture of two objectives helps the Eldar cause but is nowhere near enough to win the battle.

As well as scoring points for destroying the Warlock Titan, the Marines also gained VPs for breaking a few other units: The Titan brought Turbo Laser Destructors to bear upon Swooping Hawks before they had a chance to get involved in the battle. The Warlock was overwhelmed by Assault Troops, and also the Howling Banshees were broken.

VPs:

Marines: 39VPs
Eldar: 25VPs

Frustratingly the Marines were left 1 point short of victory but with heavily depleted forces, the Eldar player conceded defeat.

We both greatly enjoyed playtesting the new systems and both agreed that we definitely are for playing NetEpic this way in future.

I'll post up further notes about how the new rules performed tomorrow night!


Hi!

I look forward to your commentary on the alternate rules!

Great battle! Too bad the eldar were too beat up to continue. Missing outright victory by one point really hurts! :D

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Battle Report: Eldar v Marines 3K Alternative Rules Play
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:45 pm 
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Titan Plasma Rules: These worked fine, although across the 2 battles (5 game turns) I think there was only one time when I didn't have optimal plasma to run all of the required systems and even then I was only short by one plasma counter. This absolutely would not have been the case had I equipped my Titan with plasma weapons, there would definitely have had to be some trade off with the movement or repair systems in that example.

I was slightly concerned that enabling Titans to Charge and First Fire would have made them too powerful, but that wasn't the case at all. It didn't make a lot of difference other than that under the new system there is a much larger chance of Titans engaging in close combat!

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 Post subject: Re: Battle Report: Eldar v Marines 3K Alternative Rules Play
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:21 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Titan Plasma Rules: These worked fine, although across the 2 battles (5 game turns) I think there was only one time when I didn't have optimal plasma to run all of the required systems and even then I was only short by one plasma counter. This absolutely would not have been the case had I equipped my Titan with plasma weapons, there would definitely have had to be some trade off with the movement or repair systems in that example.

I was slightly concerned that enabling Titans to Charge and First Fire would have made them too powerful, but that wasn't the case at all. It didn't make a lot of difference other than that under the new system there is a much larger chance of Titans engaging in close combat!


Hi!

I'm glad they worked well. The intent was precisely to make plasma supply manageable IF you don't use plasma weapons, but a trade off if you used them. It sounds like this was your experience. :)

I think any possible powerlessness of the alternate rules was curtailed using your combined move and shoot rules as well.

I must say I am now firmly enthusiastic on developing this further.

Question Bissler how did you handle deployment? Because I have some thoughts and making deployment more tactical, but wish to see how you handled it in these games.

I will start a separate thread in the alternate rules section to discuss refining this more.

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Battle Report: Eldar v Marines 3K Alternative Rules Play
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:19 pm 
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primarch wrote:
Hi!

I'm glad they worked well. The intent was precisely to make plasma supply manageable IF you don't use plasma weapons, but a trade off if you used them. It sounds like this was your experience. :)


Yes, it definitely was. And I did like them. My data sheets seemed to serve well for placing the plasma counters. I look forward to testing them out with Plasma Weapons next time around!

primarch wrote:
I think any possible powerlessness of the alternate rules was curtailed using your combined move and shoot rules as well.

I must say I am now firmly enthusiastic on developing this further.


I'm delighted to hear of your enthusiasm for this project! I look forward to reading your suggestions and comments! Of course, I welcome comments from the whole community! *Waits for another "Heresy" stamp from Jimmy Zimms...

primarch wrote:
Question Bissler how did you handle deployment? Because I have some thoughts and making deployment more tactical, but wish to see how you handled it in these games.


It was dealt with fairly simply. On the first post of this topic you'll see an overhead view showing the deployment. We started 80cm apart as normal. My board is 120cm wide, so there is a deployment zone of 20cm for each player that you can use if required. We didn't! We just put down all our units without trying to look at what we're both doing, but invariably there are a few sly looks... After that, everything was "invisible" because of the Fog of War until activated. No, that rule doesn't seem particularly realistic but my main concern was to come up with a solution that would work...

primarch wrote:
I will start a separate thread in the alternate rules section to discuss refining this more.

Primarch


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... From now on I'm in serious danger of becoming an insufferable ego-maniac! ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Battle Report: Eldar v Marines 3K Alternative Rules Play
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:53 pm 
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Reflecting on the new Alternating activation system:

Play seemed to move faster and there was more of a feeling that something was happening all the time.

We were both much less sure of which units to move when. In general terms, you want to put out your weakest units first in turn 1, leaving your Titans until last, whereas from turn 2 onwards you want to activate the good stuff immediately and get them fired!

The +1 to First Fire rolls was partly responsible for increased speed of play. The +1 made a significant difference to the number of shots hitting enemy units.

I was never happy in the previous system that units had to snap fire at pop-up units and suffered that -1 to hit roll (the mainstay of my Marine forces, the Land Raiders, were reduced to sixes to hit, making them completely ineffectual against Eldar). The fact that the -1 for snap fire could be negated by the +1 for first fire worked for me as a good fix to the problem.

Instead of a -2 for snap fire, we decided to keep the penalty at -1 for all units on snap fire (for simplicity's sake). I did have concerns that the allowing of snap fire for units on Advance orders may have been a step too far as these units would not normally be able to fire at units popping up or fire at all at units engaging them in close combat. The -1 worked well in this regard. While there was always a chance that a unit could score a hit, it was unlikely, and in practice made little difference to the outcome of these situations. Maybe that's an argument to drop the rule completely, but I think it is nice to give players the option even if in all likelihood it won't make much difference. I still think the -2 is probably preferable to a -1 for Adavancing units snap firing, but am open to hearing what everyone else thinks about this.

Another reason for allowing Advance units to snap fire was because Close Combat is resolved at the end of a turn. Advance units used to be able to mop up survivors from Close Assaults so it seemed fair to give them a new option as this would now be denied to them. I was also concerned that Close Combat units could essentially "hop" from one unit to the next from turn to turn. There has to be the chance that they'll get shot down in their tracks.

The one major flaw that I spotted in the system related to activations and army compositions. Because of their HQ units, Marines had more units to activate and could use this to their advantage. As it happened, I didn't do this as I didn't feel it was the sporting thing to do. But something will have to be done about evening up the number of units in various armies, even if it just means giving Eldar some kind of HQ units to even the score. Of course, they could just do it by buying a mountain of Prism Cannon!

The main plus for the changes was that we felt the flow of the game was greatly improved and we felt we had more fun playing. I expected my nephew to give it a go but then want to revert back to the usual way of playing as he doesn't like messing around with the rules, but he said he definitely wanted to continue playing this way! I was chuffed with that!

Anyway, thoughts and observations are very much welcomed!

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 Post subject: Re: Battle Report: Eldar v Marines 3K Alternative Rules Play
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:38 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Reflecting on the new Alternating activation system:

Play seemed to move faster and there was more of a feeling that something was happening all the time.

We were both much less sure of which units to move when. In general terms, you want to put out your weakest units first in turn 1, leaving your Titans until last, whereas from turn 2 onwards you want to activate the good stuff immediately and get them fired!

The +1 to First Fire rolls was partly responsible for increased speed of play. The +1 made a significant difference to the number of shots hitting enemy units.

I was never happy in the previous system that units had to snap fire at pop-up units and suffered that -1 to hit roll (the mainstay of my Marine forces, the Land Raiders, were reduced to sixes to hit, making them completely ineffectual against Eldar). The fact that the -1 for snap fire could be negated by the +1 for first fire worked for me as a good fix to the problem.

Instead of a -2 for snap fire, we decided to keep the penalty at -1 for all units on snap fire (for simplicity's sake). I did have concerns that the allowing of snap fire for units on Advance orders may have been a step too far as these units would not normally be able to fire at units popping up or fire at all at units engaging them in close combat. The -1 worked well in this regard. While there was always a chance that a unit could score a hit, it was unlikely, and in practice made little difference to the outcome of these situations. Maybe that's an argument to drop the rule completely, but I think it is nice to give players the option even if in all likelihood it won't make much difference. I still think the -2 is probably preferable to a -1 for Adavancing units snap firing, but am open to hearing what everyone else thinks about this.

Another reason for allowing Advance units to snap fire was because Close Combat is resolved at the end of a turn. Advance units used to be able to mop up survivors from Close Assaults so it seemed fair to give them a new option as this would now be denied to them. I was also concerned that Close Combat units could essentially "hop" from one unit to the next from turn to turn. There has to be the chance that they'll get shot down in their tracks.

The one major flaw that I spotted in the system related to activations and army compositions. Because of their HQ units, Marines had more units to activate and could use this to their advantage. As it happened, I didn't do this as I didn't feel it was the sporting thing to do. But something will have to be done about evening up the number of units in various armies, even if it just means giving Eldar some kind of HQ units to even the score. Of course, they could just do it by buying a mountain of Prism Cannon!

The main plus for the changes was that we felt the flow of the game was greatly improved and we felt we had more fun playing. I expected my nephew to give it a go but then want to revert back to the usual way of playing as he doesn't like messing around with the rules, but he said he definitely wanted to continue playing this way! I was chuffed with that!

Anyway, thoughts and observations are very much welcomed!


Hi!

I would say that HQ units should not count towards using an activation. In other words HQ unit need to be activated either as part of another unit in the company they belong to OR let them move and shoot but it doesn't count as an activation.

As I think of this, why don't we count moving ALL HQ's as ONE activation? That would be another way of solving the issue.

In any event the HQ issue needs to be resolved since I can see it easily abused. All depends what is the most efficient method (no activation or all in one activation).

I was initially skeptical of +1 for normal first fire, but given the nature of activation it compensates for the disadvantage of not moving (these alternate rules make moving MORE important, that's a good thing!).

So to be clear, if a weapons base to hit is 4+, it would first fire at 3+, and snap fire at 4+. Correct?

If on advance orders it snap fires at -2 or -1? I think a -1 would be okay given the new dynamics. -2 may be too much.

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Battle Report: Eldar v Marines 3K Alternative Rules Play
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:02 pm 
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primarch wrote:
Hi!

I would say that HQ units should not count towards using an activation. In other words HQ unit need to be activated either as part of another unit in the company they belong to OR let them move and shoot but it doesn't count as an activation.

As I think of this, why don't we count moving ALL HQ's as ONE activation? That would be another way of solving the issue.

In any event the HQ issue needs to be resolved since I can see it easily abused. All depends what is the most efficient method (no activation or all in one activation).


Activating HQ units along with another unit in the company seems like a simple but elegant solution to the problem. Think that is the way to go.

primarch wrote:
I was initially skeptical of +1 for normal first fire, but given the nature of activation it compensates for the disadvantage of not moving (these alternate rules make moving MORE important, that's a good thing!).


I hadn't considered that these rules make moving more important, why do you think that it is the case? While I loved the +1 to First Fire, it had the exact opposite effect on me that you describe. On turn 2 my entire force was on First Fire! Maybe it should be banned then!

primarch wrote:
So to be clear, if a weapons base to hit is 4+, it would first fire at 3+, and snap fire at 4+. Correct?


Yep, spot on. Though the above point has me wondering. Maybe by going on FF, rather than getting a +1 to hit roll, FF units do not suffer the -1 for Snap Fire. It seems a subtle change but means that players wouldn't benefit from FF other than that they wouldn't have any penalties for Snap Fire. Otherwise you do run the risk of moving everything into position and it becoming a FF battle. Hmm.

primarch wrote:
If on advance orders it snap fires at -2 or -1? I think a -1 would be okay given the new dynamics. -2 may be too much.

Primarch


I actually agree but wanted to see what you (and any other interested parties) thought about this. The -1 worked fine, I still needed 6+ to hit a Falcon/Tempest popping up with Devastators and Land Raiders. The Falcons couldn't snap fire because of their reliance on popping up which I found interesting. The main reason why I did think about the -2 was because I wasn't keen on units on Advance being able to cut down attacking Close Combat units too easily. (Normally they couldn't fire at them at all.)

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 Post subject: Re: Battle Report: Eldar v Marines 3K Alternative Rules Play
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:28 am 
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The Bissler wrote:
primarch wrote:
Hi!

I would say that HQ units should not count towards using an activation. In other words HQ unit need to be activated either as part of another unit in the company they belong to OR let them move and shoot but it doesn't count as an activation.

As I think of this, why don't we count moving ALL HQ's as ONE activation? That would be another way of solving the issue.

In any event the HQ issue needs to be resolved since I can see it easily abused. All depends what is the most efficient method (no activation or all in one activation).


Activating HQ units along with another unit in the company seems like a simple but elegant solution to the problem. Think that is the way to go.

primarch wrote:
I was initially skeptical of +1 for normal first fire, but given the nature of activation it compensates for the disadvantage of not moving (these alternate rules make moving MORE important, that's a good thing!).


I hadn't considered that these rules make moving more important, why do you think that it is the case? While I loved the +1 to First Fire, it had the exact opposite effect on me that you describe. On turn 2 my entire force was on First Fire! Maybe it should be banned then!

primarch wrote:
So to be clear, if a weapons base to hit is 4+, it would first fire at 3+, and snap fire at 4+. Correct?


Yep, spot on. Though the above point has me wondering. Maybe by going on FF, rather than getting a +1 to hit roll, FF units do not suffer the -1 for Snap Fire. It seems a subtle change but means that players wouldn't benefit from FF other than that they wouldn't have any penalties for Snap Fire. Otherwise you do run the risk of moving everything into position and it becoming a FF battle. Hmm.

primarch wrote:
If on advance orders it snap fires at -2 or -1? I think a -1 would be okay given the new dynamics. -2 may be too much.

Primarch


I actually agree but wanted to see what you (and any other interested parties) thought about this. The -1 worked fine, I still needed 6+ to hit a Falcon/Tempest popping up with Devastators and Land Raiders. The Falcons couldn't snap fire because of their reliance on popping up which I found interesting. The main reason why I did think about the -2 was because I wasn't keen on units on Advance being able to cut down attacking Close Combat units too easily. (Normally they couldn't fire at them at all.)



Hi!

I guess I was think too far ahead and already added in my mind flanking and deployment rules which I'm devising (which would make moving really important) when I made the comment regarding the first fire bonus. ;)

If you say too much first fire then we need to think on how to curtail it. I sometimes wonder if first fire should give a "re-roll" instead of a bonus. I'm not the greatest at calculating probability. So what's better a bonus of a re-roll?

Then again, whats wrong with using standard net epic rules (first fire no bonus, snap fire-1 except for robotic units) and no snap fire for advance units?

The problem with bonuses and penalties in net epic is that it uses a d6 and any bonus or penalty tends to have an overly large effect.

Regarding units on advance orders and shooting at charging units, I'm not overly worried for now, but we'll get an eye on it. ;)

It looks like we have reached the "troubleshooting" phase. ;)

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Battle Report: Eldar v Marines 3K Alternative Rules Play
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:06 am 
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For to hits of 6 a bonus is better. For all others a reroll is better.

To hit/prob of hit
6/.167
6R/.306
5/.333
5R/.555
4/.500
4R/.750
3/.667
3R/.888
2/.833
2R/.972

Edit: Math fixed.

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 Post subject: Re: Battle Report: Eldar v Marines 3K Alternative Rules Play
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:34 am 
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You're a better man than me SG, I'd never have worked all that out!

Just to give a quick bit of background about why I adopted the +1 to FF:

If there is no bonus for First Fire as opposed to firing in Advance, why would you ever First Fire?

Pop-up Attacks: One of the things I never liked about the last set of rules was that the only way (other than using flyers which I don't have) to catch Eldar tanks popping up was to Snap Fire them. It meant the Eldar had another advantage. So I muddled on with the old version of the rules where once a unit had popped up it stayed popped up until the end of the FF phase. The new rules mean that "fix" is definitely out. That being the case, I wanted to ensure that -1 to hit was definitely negated for units on FF.


At the moment, I'm thinking no bonus for first fire but no minus for snap firing at units when you are on FF may be the way to go. Snap Fire should be much more important now when you play the game this way. I'm trying to think of other bonuses which would not necessarily skew the game. Units on FF may fire and act as spotters for indirect barrages?

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 Post subject: Re: Battle Report: Eldar v Marines 3K Alternative Rules Play
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:26 am 
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Fun fact - the probability of success with a reroll is 2h-h2, where h is the probability of success without reroll.

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 Post subject: Re: Battle Report: Eldar v Marines 3K Alternative Rules Play
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:53 pm 
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Hi!

Thanks for the probability calculation SG!

Bissler, since your the only one whose tested so far. Did you find the bonus to hit made it too easy to get hits?

You mentioned the higher amount of hits made the game faster (and I assume more deadly), that's not a bad thing in my view.

We should probably test a game with no first fire bonus and no snap fire penalty for first fire units with a -1 penalty for advance snap firing and see what that looks like. Then compare the two playtest to see what is better.

One of the problems we are now seeing with single activation mechanics is that the static order becomes "unwieldy" . I have several fixes, but they all default to the "heresy" model and that's the path of an entirely new game. Which is not our purpose.

It boils down to how to define what each order does within the confines of one continuous action. It also depends on how much "legacy mechanics" we are willing to part with. ;)

Still giving it thought though. Its easy to come up with an idea. Its harder to foresee the conflicting issues and unintended consequences of any proposed rule.

I will continue to ponder....

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Battle Report: Eldar v Marines 3K Alternative Rules Play
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:05 pm 
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primarch wrote:
Hi!

Thanks for the probability calculation SG!

Bissler, since your the only one whose tested so far. Did you find the bonus to hit made it too easy to get hits?

You mentioned the higher amount of hits made the game faster (and I assume more deadly), that's not a bad thing in my view.

We should probably test a game with no first fire bonus and no snap fire penalty for first fire units with a -1 penalty for advance snap firing and see what that looks like. Then compare the two playtest to see what is better.

One of the problems we are now seeing with single activation mechanics is that the static order becomes "unwieldy" . I have several fixes, but they all default to the "heresy" model and that's the path of an entirely new game. Which is not our purpose.

It boils down to how to define what each order does within the confines of one continuous action. It also depends on how much "legacy mechanics" we are willing to part with. ;)

Still giving it thought though. Its easy to come up with an idea. Its harder to foresee the conflicting issues and unintended consequences of any proposed rule.

I will continue to ponder....

Primarch


Totally agree with you Primarch about the not wanting to ditch anything really other than the turn sequence. If we can find a way to make this work I think it is worth a go - and if can retain everything else, I think it has the best chance of bringing NetEpic fans along with us. I'm still feeling excited by the system as it seemed to work relatively well in the playtest.

The bonus definitely made things easier for me, although with all of my units having a 5+ to hit roll, it just meant everything had a 50/50 chance of hitting so there were still plenty of misses. Strategy wise, I think the Eldar would have been better served by putting their Falcons on FF - they were moving about a lot transporting close assault troops - had this happened I reckon the game would have been a lot closer. 3+ would most definitely have caused some damaged. The Eldar player also had some horrendously bad rolls, there's no number of bonuses that can do anything about that.

I agree that more deadly is no bad thing. NetEpic games can go on for hours on end and anything that speeds up the process only makes things more tense and more fun! I remember how much better 2nd edition Epic was than 1st edition because of that. Ok, I was appalled initially at just how easily units died, but it didn't take me long to come around to more carnage = faster and more entertaining conflicts. Just think, our friend Ulrik would be able to knock a day or two off of his epic Epics! ;D

+1 to FF does seem like it might still be the way to go to justify the differences between FF and Advance...

Will keep trying to think of an alternative!

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 Post subject: Re: Battle Report: Eldar v Marines 3K Alternative Rules Play
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:26 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
primarch wrote:
Hi!

Thanks for the probability calculation SG!

Bissler, since your the only one whose tested so far. Did you find the bonus to hit made it too easy to get hits?

You mentioned the higher amount of hits made the game faster (and I assume more deadly), that's not a bad thing in my view.

We should probably test a game with no first fire bonus and no snap fire penalty for first fire units with a -1 penalty for advance snap firing and see what that looks like. Then compare the two playtest to see what is better.

One of the problems we are now seeing with single activation mechanics is that the static order becomes "unwieldy" . I have several fixes, but they all default to the "heresy" model and that's the path of an entirely new game. Which is not our purpose.

It boils down to how to define what each order does within the confines of one continuous action. It also depends on how much "legacy mechanics" we are willing to part with. ;)

Still giving it thought though. Its easy to come up with an idea. Its harder to foresee the conflicting issues and unintended consequences of any proposed rule.

I will continue to ponder....

Primarch


Totally agree with you Primarch about the not wanting to ditch anything really other than the turn sequence. If we can find a way to make this work I think it is worth a go - and if can retain everything else, I think it has the best chance of bringing NetEpic fans along with us. I'm still feeling excited by the system as it seemed to work relatively well in the playtest.

The bonus definitely made things easier for me, although with all of my units having a 5+ to hit roll, it just meant everything had a 50/50 chance of hitting so there were still plenty of misses. Strategy wise, I think the Eldar would have been better served by putting their Falcons on FF - they were moving about a lot transporting close assault troops - had this happened I reckon the game would have been a lot closer. 3+ would most definitely have caused some damaged. The Eldar player also had some horrendously bad rolls, there's no number of bonuses that can do anything about that.

I agree that more deadly is no bad thing. NetEpic games can go on for hours on end and anything that speeds up the process only makes things more tense and more fun! I remember how much better 2nd edition Epic was than 1st edition because of that. Ok, I was appalled initially at just how easily units died, but it didn't take me long to come around to more carnage = faster and more entertaining conflicts. Just think, our friend Ulrik would be able to knock a day or two off of his epic Epics! ;D

+1 to FF does seem like it might still be the way to go to justify the differences between FF and Advance...

Will keep trying to think of an alternative!


Hi!

Go over to the official thread, I posted an idea that may be workable. :)

Primarch


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