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DE 2017 ver 1.1 VS Squats 1.6.1 http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=32353 |
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Author: | Norto [ Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:34 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: DE 2017 ver 1.1 VS Squats 1.6.1 |
Cool report and pictures. Love the table. Any thoughts so far on the them. Seams you havt lost a game so far and getting big wins. |
Author: | Deb [ Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:41 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: DE 2017 ver 1.1 VS Squats 1.6.1 |
The win in the game against the Squats could be that I do not have experience playing them and may not have use them as other seasoned Squat players would have. Also I forgot to bring in the Berserkers on Turn 2 when I should have brought them in. That Squat list I made up was balanced, and did not have a massive amount of artillery, or spam of either Overlords or Iron eagles. Perhaps a spammed list would have been harder to go against. I should try them against an artillery heavy force such as guard. They tend to lose a lot against Guard armies. Against Nids, Necrons, Orks and Tau, I think things would also be a lot harder. Marines, Sisters, some Chaos builds, and some lighter Eldar builds are easy meat, however Some Eldar have proven to be very difficult to deal with. The problem is my regular local gamers have limited armies, and also can only game against me one day a month. To get full on variety and a varied range of gaming experience, I need to face off against more experienced gamers who have different armies. In the game against Black Legion - a decent game fairly balanced Chaos list that I played the previous day, and still have to get the photos organised, it was very close. Turn 3 had a draw DE 1 vs BL 1. In turn 2, DE won 2:0, but only just. The list I took for that game were: Test games DE list 2017 1.1 vs Black Legion List 8 – 10 formations (43 Units) 50 points 50 Points – Portable Wraithgate 1025 Points 375 Points – Coterie – Archon, 4 Incubi Units, 1 Raiders, 2 Venoms, 325 Points – Flotilla – Dracon, 5 Ravagers 325 Points – Flotilla – Dracon, 5 Ravagers 1225 Points 250 – Reavers – Sucubus, 6 Reaver Units 250 – Reavers – Sucubus, 6 Reaver Units 250 – Scourges – 6 Scourges 225 – Talos - 4 Talos 250 Points – Heavy Barge – 1 Vessel of Pain 700 points 500 Points – Titan – 1 Tormentor Titan [BTS] 200 Points – Razorwings – 2 Razorwings Black Legion – 13th Black Crusade – 9 formations incl Summoned Daemons (74 units) Retinues – 700 410 – Retinue – Warlord, 8 Chaos Marines, 4 Noise Marines, 6 Rhinos, Daemonic Pact 340 – Retinue – Chaos Lord, 8 Chaos Marines, 4 Rhinos, Daemonic Pact Elites – 825 825 – Terminators – Sorceror Lord, 4 Terminators, 4 Landraiders, 3 Defilers, Daemonic Pact Support – 1040 350 – Chaos Bikes – Lord, 8 x Chaos Bikes, Daemonic Pact, Icon Bearer 275 – Defller Assault Pack – 4 Defilers 340 – Raptor Cult – Chaos Lord – 8 x Raptors, Daemonic Pact 1/3 Titans and aircraft – 400 200 – Hellblades – 3 x Hellblades 200 – Hellblades – 3 x Hellblades Daemons – 135 135 – 9 x lesser daemons (+ 5 more from daemonic pacts). I realise I misunderstood the Summoning rules a little (D3 not D6), but the 3 extra Daemonettes I summoned did nothing anyway, as they had no FF value, and returned to the Daemon pool at the end of the turn. I think the reason for the decent success by the DE is that I know how to play them really well now, unlike when I first played them at Heavy Bolter last year, and at Castle Assault in 2016. The ground based AA does help a little to aleve the losses caused by enemy AA strafing runs. Artillery still kills of broken non-fearless units. Also I tend not to use Kalabite warrior Syndicates. I find they are not worth their points for what they can do. I tend to use Ravager Flotillas, and fill the gap left by the warriors with Wych Cults, Reaver Gangs, and sometimes Scourges. I know they now have a 6+ save, and you can build formations up to 10 strong if you do not take a Dracon, but I seem to dislike taking them. The Incubi/ Coterie is good, and this is where I put 2 warriors backed up by a pair of Incubi to help the formation last longer. The Reavers are brilliant, and have helped win me games by triple moving 120cm to grab or deny objectives. They do have their downsides, low FF compared to their CC, they have no ranged weapons, only engagement attacks, and they still have to take dangerous terrain tests as they are mounted. If you need to tone the Tormentor down (providing others complain about how hard it is to deal with), then it could afford to lose a single shadowfield. It tends to lose all but 1 or 2 of the shields in a single round of shooting from enemy concentrated fire, or all of them if the enemy shoot 2 or more formations of Titans against it. This usually causes it to be either dead or near death if ganged up on by Titans. The 4 DC does mean it breaks easily, so enemy can make it a useless unit if they disrupt fire at it. It then runs away a lot. You will see that I tend to take Dracons, Ancient Haemonculi or Succubus where ever I can. Even at 50 points each, the combination of Leader and Inspiring helps them in engagements a lot. The list does have a flaw to off set this bonus. Only the Archon has the ability to use the commander skill, as he/she is supreme commander. This means the DE have to arrange complex manoeuvres to get forces up to provide support, or arrange it so the enemy has to clip the DE forces, and bring other formations into the engagement. I have become adept at doing this better. So you will see the DE are generally grouped with 2 or 3 formations supporting each other close by. This makes artillery very happy, even when I tend to spread them out. You will see that in my reports, a lot of units tend to die off quickly. Those units, well the ones I tend to use, also give back as good as they get. The a-typical Glass Hammer. Reavers, Ravagers, Venoms, and Scourges. In close combat Wyches and Incubi are also good, but can die off easily. Talos, VoP and the Tormentor, are the only units that tend to last longer, and thus deal out more damage as a result, before they also eventually get killed off. One thing, which I know you will not bring back, is the ability of units to shoot from the open topped vehicles like the venoms, raiders and Barges of Pleasure. The Orks lists that have LV (trukks) transports let units mounted on them shoot from those transports. Perhaps allow the venoms and raiders only to allow the infantry units on board to provide FF support and also shoot from them. If that were allowed I would be taking more venoms and raiders and also warriors. You could then remove the warriors 6+ save. My general tactics for DE are to move up using cover, some formations designated as support fire platforms like ravagers and VoP move-shoot-move a lot. Other formations which are designed for close combat and FF like wyches, incubi, talos, haemonculi, scourges and the tormentor, tend to move up close to each other, use cover as best they can, get close, and shoot the enemy up before assaulting them. About 2/3 of the list is for engaging the enemy, the other 1/3 that I take is for harassing and providing fire support. I hope this feedback helps. I think the list is close to being as balanced as it can get. Maybe the removal of a single shield from the Tormentor, but everything is pretty much where it need to be. |
Author: | Tiny-Tim [ Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:32 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: DE 2017 ver 1.1 VS Squats 1.6.1 |
Thanks for all your work on this Deb. I must try some of your lists out as they are different to my approach. |
Author: | SpeakerToMachines [ Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:15 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: DE 2017 ver 1.1 VS Squats 1.6.1 |
Very cool table! |
Author: | taiaha [ Mon May 01, 2017 9:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: DE 2017 ver 1.1 VS Squats 1.6.1 |
Agree - that is a great looking table. Sad to see the Squats getting destroyed so thoroughly. I'd tend to run at least another formation - maybe splitting your Overlords to help with activation count, then using their firepower to help prep for engagements. I didnt see a SC in your list - you need a Warlord +Grand Warlord (character), or you can add the Grand Warlord to a Guildmaster unit. Also, note that the Tunnelers have to be pre-plotted before the game starts with the Turn and location of arrival. They can arrive in your half the board from Turn 2, and anywhere on the board turn 3. Thanks for the batrep and looking forward to seeing the Squats fully painted (hope they end up looking as good as your DE) |
Author: | Deb [ Tue May 02, 2017 9:58 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: DE 2017 ver 1.1 VS Squats 1.6.1 |
OK was not so sure about how the tunnellers worked. Thought they were like deep strikers (like Terminators) It seems they are more like drop pods, except that you do not need a Spaceship. Tunnellers look to be more a hassle than they are worth. I would probably take more Rhinos or War engine transports for the force. I think I forgot to add the lists for the armies I used for the game DE vs Squats. I did have a Warlord for the Squats. The write up does mention the squats Overlord failing its rally test even with the SC re-roll. DE 3000 points – 9 formations, 41 units wraithgate 50 points 50 points – Portable Wraithgate 1225 points 575 points – Coterie – Archon, 6 Incubi, 2 Warriors, 2 Barge of Pleasure, [BTS] 325 points – Flotilla – Dracon, 5 Ravagers 325 points – Flotilla – Dracon, 5 Ravagers 1025 points 250 points – Reavers – Succubus, 6 Reavers 250 points – Reavers – Succubus, 6 Reavers 250 points – Heavy Barge – 1 Vessel of Pain 275 points – Talos – 5 Talos 700 points 500 Points – Titan – 1 Tormentor Titan 200 Points – Razorwings – 2 Razorwings VS List 2 – 3000 Points – 9 Formations, 67 Units Brotherhood Formations – 900 Points 325 Points – Warrior Brotherhood – 1 x Warlord, 1 x Hearthguard, 9 x Warrior Units, 6 Rhinos 275 Points – Berserker Brotherhood – 1 x Hearthguard, 9 x Berserker Units, 5 x Termites 300 Points – Thunderers – 4 Thunderer Units, 2 Warrior Units, 2 Thunderfires Support Formations – 1250 points 225 Points – Biker Guild – I x Guildmaster, 3 x Guild Trikes, 4 x Guild Bike Units 225 Points – Biker Guild – I x Guildmaster, 3 x Guild Trikes, 4 x Guild Bike Units 300 Points – Iron Eagle – 6 x Iron Eagle Gyrocopters 500 Points – 2 x Overlord Airships with1 upgraded with a Flak AA cannon War Engines – 850 points 550 points – Cyclops + Flak turret + Living Ancestor [BTS] 300 points – 2 Goliath Mega Cannon It is the first time I have used the Squats for anything more than a fun game or minigeddon game. I tend to use the DE, Emperor's Children (although I tend to not use daemons do much) and Vraksian renegades more than Squats, Eldar, sisters, Dark Mechanicus, and White Scars. Seems the Warlord is just a commander, and the Grand Warlord is the Supreme commander. At 100 points, he does not do as much as you would expect compared to the 50 point warlord. Hearthguard seem to be the more useful with both Inspiring and Leader. As I said, I need more experience playing squats to be sure I am playing them correctly. I know how to use DE to the best of their abilities. I need more opponents with their own armies that they use regularly. I particularly want to game against more Necron, Ork, and Tau players as there is a definite lack of them in my area, and those that do have those armies tend to play other games like Malifaux, infinity or the dreaded 40K more than Epic. I did play a good game of minigeddon on the weekend and won both games against one of my mates. In the game with my Squats vs his Knights, he rolled really badly for some of this saves and close combat rolls. that game I got his BTS, and his Blitz, he nearly got T&H, but I moved units in to deny it to him. I used Warrior Brotherhood/Warlord/+4 Berserkers/Rhinos, 4 Thunderers/2 warriors/Rhinos, 1 Overlord, Guild Master/3 Trikes/4 Bikes. In the game with my Vraksian Renegades vs his Imperial Fists Marines, I killed his BTS, gained T&H, but he also got T&H, neither of us got TSNP, Blitz or DTF. My artillery worked well in that game with 3 Basilisks, and an Infantry Platoon backed up by 3 Griffins. I lost my Leman Russ Destroyers, and some of my BTS Infantry Platoon, and even one of my Sentinel Squadron. I am fairly well versed in fighting standard non-drop Space Marine armies. Surprisingly, he had 5 activations to my 5 in that game. 2 x scouts/rhinos, devastators/rhinos/commander, predators, land speeders vs my infantry platoon/Griffins/Enforcer, Basilisk squadron/Enforcer, Leman Russ Destoyer squadron, Sentinel Squadron. |
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