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Teach me the game - IG vs Ork
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=20204		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Helge [ Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:43 am ]
Post subject:  Teach me the game - IG vs Ork
Greetings

After painting lots of Epic models I am slowly gathering motivation to actually learn the rule system. As a learning tool I am going to stumble through some VASSAL battles and post each step here for comments. I am looking for rule mistakes that I make as I go through the motions. Comments on tactics (or rather tactical mistakes) are also welcome, though not as critical.

I picked IG and Orks because of their relatively straightforward mechanics (and classic match-up). The first game will be 2k without warmachines or flyers. Just the basics. The lists are likewise fairly basic:

Imperial Guard
Regimental HQ - 500
Infantry Coy (/w Fire Support) - 350
Tank Coy - 650 (BTS)
Sentinel Sqd - 100
Artillery Bty (Basilisk) - 250
Rough Rider Sqd - 150
(every formation has a Commissar)

Orks
'Uge Warband (/w Warboss) - 500
Big Warband (/w Battlewagonz) - 560 (BTS)
Big Blitz Brigade - 250
Big Kult of Speed (8 Buggies, 8 Bikes) - 350
Stormboyz - 150
Mekboy Gunzmob (/w Zappgun) - 175

Setup looks like this:

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First Question: The Garrison setup looks odd. The rules say that only one stand needs to be within 15cm of the objective so large formations can stretch right up to the middle of the table. If I had placed the IG infantry a bit forward these two Garrison formations would be within each other's ZoC right away. Is this right?

Turn 1 tomorrow!
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Teach me the game - IG vs Ork
Helge wrote:
First Question: The Garrison setup looks odd. The rules say that only one stand needs to be within 15cm of the objective so large formations can stretch right up to the middle of the table. If I had placed the IG infantry a bit forward these two Garrison formations would be within each other's ZoC right away. Is this right?


Well you cannot enter a ZoC without a nominating a charge so they would be 5.1cm apart :) Also, just as long as they do not cross the centre line.

Now the biggest issue that will take place here is what is termed as a clipping assault. If they are that close, whoever wins the initiative can gain the advantage to attack the other formation on one side of their deployment in either CC or FF, and thereby minimise the attacks via Overwatch whilst also limiting the opponent's ability to hit back. Do this on a retain after a shot has been fired from another formation on that unit and you are +2 to +3 on the combat resolution even before any of the 2 formations roll any dice!

So unless you are confident of winning the initiative, or have another plan that you are going for, setting up within Charge range of another garrison (15-30cm usually) is probably not a good idea :)
Author:  Helge [ Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Teach me the game - IG vs Ork
Turn 1:

Initiative: IG

Based on Frogbear's comment I would love to try a “clipping assault” but have no idea how to do this. I can move the Infantry Company by 15cm. Presumably I want a firefight, not close combat engagement. With 15cm I can’t really move around the side of the Ork clan, so I will get hit by the bulk of their Overwatch fire. It seems to me that I can either just shoot them (they don’t shoot me), or FF (after they shoot me). Since it was recommended, I will try the FF option.
I move a minimalistic distance forward just to get the rear of the my formation into FF range. Orks fire on OW. Despite my minimal movement pretty much everybody can shoot. 29 shots, 4 hits (on 6, then 4+ due to the buildings), 4 dead (most of them are in the open so no saves). 5 BMs

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Now the Orks move in (5cm) and the FF begins. IG kills three Grotz. Orks kill 9 units in a withering hail of fire and hack down the rest. The Orks consolidate another 5cm forward. Not really the result I was expecting… What did I do wrong? [I think one mistake was that the Orks should not have received 3 BM for the killed Grotz in the FF].

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IG retains successfully to get the Sentinels to try another clipping assault on the mob. They successfully avoid the OW fire from the Big Gunz and move just within 15cm of the nearest Ork stand. The Orks move 5cm towards the Sentinels. The Sentinels gun down one Ork stand. The Orks achieve nothing in return. Assault result is 7 (4 rolled + 3) vs 8 (6 rolled + 2) in favour of the Orks. Another loss for the IG but this one I could at least see how it might work (the Infantry Company assault was nowhere near close). A Sentinel gets hacked down and the rest escape.
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Time for the Orks to start moving. With a Double order to proceed deeper into the ruined city area and most of the stands go into houses. They blow up a Sentinel along the way.
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The IG has a bit of time before the other Ork units come in so the Artillery blasts the Orks in the city. Two Boyz and a Nobz stand are blown apart.
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The Orks stall by moving the Stormboyz forward on a Double.
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IG doubles forward Rough Rider to match up to the Stormboyz.
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The Orks Double the Kult of Speed into the center.
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The Regimental HQ Advanced towards the Mob in the city and unleashes hell. Sort of… Three Grotz get blown up. How does cover work in this case? Most of the models were in cover but the Grotz up front were just out on the street. Image

Orks put the Big Gunz back on Overwatch.

Lacking worthier targets, the Leman Russ Company Advances onto the hell and blasts the Orks some more. A lucky roll evaporates 5 stands, including some Nobz.
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By a slim margin the Orks Break. They use their withdrawal move to re-occupy the forward buildings. This feels weird but seems ok under the rules. Image


The rest of the Turn belongs to the Orks. The Gun Wagonz double onto the second Objective and blast away at the Regimental HQ. I am interpreting “Extra Attack (d3)” to mean that each gun gets d3 shots, not 1+d3. Is that correct? Two Chimeras go up in smoke.
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Finally the second Mob Marches across the battlefield to threaten the right IG flank with the Blitz Objective.
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The Sentinels and Ork Mob rally but the Regimental HQ doesn’t.
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At the end of the first turn the Orks seem in a strong position. They have destroyed the Infantry Company, damaged the Sentinels and Regimental HQ, and advanced their forces deep into the IG half. Half of the ‘Uge Mob has died along the way but it is not solidly entrenched around the Objective.
Any comments, rule mistakes or tactical issues?
Author:  KriegXXIX [ Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Teach me the game - IG vs Ork
Couple of things. The extra attack +d3 would give you a total of 1+d3 normal attacks. Another example is the attacks on a unit of Nobz. They have EA+1, MW. In this case, they would have 1 normal attack in CC, and then an additional attack that has the macro weapon ability.

I think the withdrawal move was fine. You can often use the move after breaking to put yourself in a good position as long as you are outside 15cm (non-fearless) from enemy units. Just beware that you are at -1 to rally if you are within 30cm of an enemy unit. That would mean that most non-SM units would rally on 5+ in that case (IG, Eldar etc).

One thing to watch is intermingling. The last pic has your Leman Russes and Reg HQ within 5cm (at least it looks like it). While you can use this to launch a combined assault, the ork player could engage the end of the line, and assault both formations. If the Orks set it up right, they can clip the Reg HQ to prevent the russes from getting any shots, and then break both formations assuming the engage goes alright. My buddy who plays Eldar has pulled this on me many times, and it hurts bad.

Cover can be a pain. If you want to hit units in cover, all of your shooting must suffer the -1 for cover. However, units out of cover cannot benefit from the cover save. In this case, if three grots are out of cover and one is in, then 4 hits would remove 3 grots (out of cover), and then you would get a cover save on the 4th (4+ for buildings). Units defending in assaults get the cover save, but not the -1 to hit them. Attackers never get the cover save.

As far as tactics go, IG work well when they have units on overwatch to cover the front-line units. Putting BM's on assaulting units can save your defensive units. Orks may not be as bad, since their big scary stuff is generally slow moving, however, Space Marines and Eldar will rock you with their high strategy ratings and ridiculous aerial and webway assaults. Orks work well as attritional forces. A large portion of your force needs to be big, because you need the numbers to get through to the opponent. Lastly, remember objectives. Both orks and IG in my experience need to win on objectives, because they both generally lose more victory points in tie-breakers than the other armies.
Author:  Helge [ Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Teach me the game - IG vs Ork
Turn 2:
Initiative: IG
Regimental HQ fails to activate and shots at the Ork mob instead. No hits at all… Artillery retains but fails to active. Still blows up two Gunwagonz though.
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Orks double the mounted mob and fire on the Artillery. Badly savaged the Basilisks break and retreat towards the remaining IG elements.
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The Orks retain with the Stormboyz to assault the Rough Rider. A wave of high rolls sees the Stormboyz wiped out to the man from first strike attacks. I had hoped that enough boyz would survive to allow the mob to weigh in with supporting fire. My understanding of the rules is that this doesn’t happen because everybody died before the end of the direct engagement. Correct?
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It’s desperation time so the Rough Rider squadron engages the mounted mob. Five Orks are mowed down but the riders are wiped out to a map. I didn’t know what else I could have done though. No escape from the overwatch guns.
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The Leman Russ formation retains and engages the mob in a Firefight. If there is any hope then I need to clear the city. Six Ork units and two tanks blow apart. The tanks win handily by 4 and the broken mob flees.
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The Gunwagonz fail to active and fire into the Regimental HQ instead. This time with the proper number of shots. (1+d3). Only a single troop stand dies. The sentinels fail to active and just shuffle sideways a bit.
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The Kult of Speeds doubles into close range of the Regimental HQ and blows up the last Basilisk along the way. The Gun Mob also doubles and destroys a Chimera with the Zapp gun.
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None of the Ork units rally and both IG formations do.
[I found another rule mistake. I didn’t give blast markers for failed activations. Retroactively this just translates into one more BM for the Gunwagonz].
The IG is in bad shape at this point. The only hope for a tie lies in the high number of blast markers on most of the Ork formations.
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Author:  Helge [ Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Teach me the game - IG vs Ork
Turn 3:

Initiative: IG

Time for something fancy. The Leman Russ move into the middle of all Ork formations and fire at the Gunwagonz with devastating effect. No more Gunwagonz.
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The Regimental HQ engages the Kult of Speed, bring the Leman Russ Company in as support. The initial exchange doesn’t go too well with 5 IG and a Chimera dying in exchange of only 3 Bikes. The Russ weigh with two more kills and even the Sentinels blow up a buggy. The Orks (barely) break and retreat to the objective. I had hoped to destroy more of the Kult of Speed and then march the Sentinels to the opposing half of the table. Didn’t work out.
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The Big Gunz sustain fire and blast apart a single Russ.
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The Sentinels double but achieve nothing against the Kult of Speed. Just couldn’t get through.
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The mounted mob strings out to cover the objective and bring some fire to bear on the Regimental HQ. Two more guardsmen die and the unit breaks.
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All units rally/regroup except the Kults of Speed and the Ork Mob in the ruins.
Goals: Orks 2 (TSNP, BK), IG 0
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Author:  madd0ct0r [ Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Teach me the game - IG vs Ork
I'm starting to see just how insanely powerful the Russ formation can be (if it dosen't get pinned down with BM's quickly enough)

This is a very nice idea Helga, might have to try it myself
Author:  Geep [ Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Teach me the game - IG vs Ork
I don't have first hand rules experience yet, but I think I picked up one thing:

Quote:
Regimental HQ fails to activate and shots at the Ork mob instead. No hits at all… Artillery retains but fails to active. Still blows up two Gunwagonz though.


I'm pretty sure you can't Retain on a failed Activation

Also, next time I suggest following Frogbear's other piece of advice on that intial assault (not just the thing about clipping)- It's a good idea to try and lay some BMs on the formation you intend to Assault (by shooting them with a different formation of yours), then Retain to perform your Assault. Not only does this give the enemy formation penalties for having BMs for combat resolution, but in this case it would also have reduced the Overwatch fire you took (at least a little).

Quote:
Three Grotz get blown up. How does cover work in this case? Most of the models were in cover but the Grotz up front were just out on the street.
My understanding (going by the printed rulebook only) is that you can choose to either shoot with no cover penalty, but will only be able to kill those units not in cover (and they don't get cover saves), OR shoot with the -1 to-hit penalty and potentially be able to hurt all enemy in the formation, cover or not (assigning hits front to back as normal). Cover saves are worked out for each stand.
I could easily be wrong about this, but at least it makes sense to me.
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Teach me the game - IG vs Ork
Agreed on all three points, Geep.
Author:  Helge [ Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Teach me the game - IG vs Ork
Thanks for the feedback and rule corrections. I indeed screwed up the "retain after failed activation" issue.

Regarding the IG assault, the OW fire basically stopped that in its tracks. Putting on some blast markers might have helped, but there was nothing in the area that could have done more than a few markers. The OW fire tore half of the IG formation to bits and it was downhill from there.
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