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Giant Bureaucracy overwhelms zippy Entrepeneurs
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=17188		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Honda [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Giant Bureaucracy overwhelms zippy Entrepeneurs
So John and I got together last night to give the new Krieg list (well at least, new to me) a spin at 3000 pts.

My 3000 pt list:

1 x Regimental HQ + Commissar + Fire Support
1 x Infantry Co + Commissar + Fire Support
1 x Infantry Co + Commissar + Gorgons (mortars)
1 x Grenadiers + Gorgons (mortars)
1 x Artillery Co + Commissar
2 x Lt. Artillery (Quad Launchers)
2 x Flak Support, 2 Heavy mounts, 1 Hydra mount each
1 x Thunderbolts

John fielded something like:

1 x 10-ish Bike Horde with Autarchy dude, Windrider dude (long flowing blonde hair), and something else
1 x 10-ish Bike Horde with Windrider dude, plus 4 Vypers
1 x 7-ish Vyper squadron
2 x 6 man guardian, 3 Wave Serpent squadrons
2 x Vaul Tank thingies with, 2 Prisms, 3 Falcons, 1 Fire Storm
3 x SHT Cobras (WHAT!!!!)
1 x 3 ship Nightwing squadron

I had no idea what John’s list was going to be, but I knew it would be full of buzzing bikes, at least two of the Vaul formations, Vypers for seasoning and an annoying number of the Wave Serpent formations. I was NOT expecting to see any Super Heavies.

Set Up

I garrisoned my Artillery Co. and Lt. Arty groups around my Blitz. I also placed the Flak batteries on the corner of this castle. I put the foot Company to the immediate left of the castle, the Grenadiers to the immediate right (baseline, on board their Gorgon), the other foot company in front of the grenadiers, and the Reg HQ to the right of the Grenadiers.

All of these formations were clumped up close to each other on the right half of my deployment zone. I wanted everything to be able to support each other and protect the castle.

Because of John’s higher mobility, his units were spread to the four winds. In general, his bikes and Wave Serpents were to my right, Cobras and Vauls to my left, with possibly a Wave Serpent in the middle somewhere.
Prior to seeing John’s list, I decided that I would defend my half of the board as much as I could, per Asaura’s strategy in his battle with Hena, and at the same time, attack John’s strong FF formations. Fielding Cobras complicated my plan, but I figured I’d just have to deal with them somehow when the opportunity presented itself.

Turn 1

No teleports and oddly enough, the Krieg roll high enough to go first. I opt to fire the Artillery company. They’re not sure I really meant that, so the SC had to repeat the order.

So several tons of inert metal were cast into the air, where it landed? Oh, way over there!

One jet bike horde instantly became very unhappy campers…and it kind of went downhill for the Eldar from there. The Cobras misjudged the distance from a Krieg infantry company, got FF’d, and lost two in the combat and broke. A similar event involving one of the Wave Serpent squads took place on the right with a Gorgon mounted company. The Eldar were shooting not hitting much and the Krieg were pretty much predicting “Cloudy with a chance of metal meatballsâ€Â
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Giant Bureaucracy overwhelms zippy Entrepeneurs
Thanks for the report!
Author:  Ginger [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Giant Bureaucracy overwhelms zippy Entrepeneurs
Interesting report that raised a few questions.
Assuming they got the better of their opponents, what was the Kriegies strategy? I presume they would not have had enough speed to threaten the Blitz, and if they do not destroy the BTS, the best they can score in Tournaments is 3 points and indeed they may find it hard to achieve 'They shall not pass'.

Equally, the number of Eldar Cobras suggests John was assuming they still had Ignore Cover. So which Eldar craftworld list was in use?
Author:  BlackLegion [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Giant Bureaucracy overwhelms zippy Entrepeneurs
Interesting battle. HOw fared the 4-strong Quad-launcher batteries? Did they felt to strong?
Author:  jfrazell [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Giant Bureaucracy overwhelms zippy Entrepeneurs
Not my best outting. The original plan was to go full bore with the armor/superheavies as quickly as possible and hit the artillery. The antiaircraft batteries and then FF with the infantry formation messed up the heavies and tank formations almost right out fo the box. Well played and my plan pretty much fell apart. That often happens if I get stuffed early on. I almost never play superheavies and really misjudged their survivabiity in this context. This list also fits Honda's "immediately go into overwatch and counterpunch," style very well.

The other side was going to be a setup with an attempt to firefight the Krieg superheavies while the troops were still inside. That fluffed a little bit-the eldar had serious problems judging distances this game. I blame the guy at the top myself. :flyboy:  


Sam Hain
Task Force Lupe Tortilla

Autarch chieftain (add to a host) 75
Wind Rider Host One 250
1 wind rider  plus  6 jetbikes
farseer 50
6 jetbikes 200

Wind Rider Host Two 250
1 wind rider  plus  6 vipers
farseer 50

Wind Rider Host Three 250
1 wind rider  plus  6 jetbikes/vipers
6 jetbikes/vipers 200

Guardian Troop 6 guardians, 3 wave serpents 250

Guardian Troop 6 guardians, 3 wave serpents 250

Sword of Vaul
5 falcons 300
1 firestorm

Sword of Vaul
3 4 prisms 195 345
1 1 firestorm 50
2 falcon 100

3 scorpion, cobra, or Night Serpent 250
Nightwings (3) 300

We proffered after the game of "running" his IG hordes right up the middle, with some troops entrenched around the artillery as protection. A Mac truck should never try to be delicate. Thoughts?
Author:  Moscovian [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Giant Bureaucracy overwhelms zippy Entrepeneurs
What was the terrain like?  It seems that Samm Hain suffer from mounted syndrome (unable to hide in woods like other Eldar) so I was wondering if this was a factor.

Do you think that the Krieg list was balanced internally?  Were there certain choices that seemed obvious (to either take or not take at all)?
Author:  Honda [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Giant Bureaucracy overwhelms zippy Entrepeneurs
Quote: 

Interesting battle. HOw fared the 4-strong Quad-launcher batteries? Did they felt to strong?


From one battle, no. We'll see as more battles occur.

@Mosc: We tend to play on pretty heavily terrained boards, in fact, I commented that the terrain sure looked like it favored the Eldar. Then I realized that almost all my artillery had Indirect. So, I do think that infantry that would be able to capitalize on terrain features for something other than LOF, would have benefited.

John is a very nasty SH player. He really knows how to whip his bikers around and at best, I usually break even with him using Tau or SM. They are always brutal knife fights.

I think the battle would have easily gone into Turn 3 if the Cobra and other Wave Serpent moves would have been played differently.

@Ginger: I do think that the Krieg are going to struggle with objectives as they become more familiar. Set up well, their Blitz ought to be murder. I think they'll have to pull a few tricks out of their hat to get their opponent's Blitz. Assuming that they take the Artillery Co (and right now I don't know why you wouldn't), I wouldn't be surprised if the forecast for opponent's BTS is "Cloudy with a chance of metal meatballs". Let's face it, it's one of the few objectives that they can achieve, though it isn't going to be easy.

So the Krieg are going to have to work pretty hard in their games.

Quote: 

Do you think that the Krieg list was balanced internally?  Were there certain choices that seemed obvious (to either take or not take at all)?


Actually, I do. The reason I say that is because the core formations are not small or cheap and you are limited by the number of support choices (2 per core). As much as I would prefer a 3 per core, I think the flavor of the list better supports 2 per. As it stands now, you have to make a lot of hard choices in building your list. Note that there weren't any SHTs or AVs in the list besides the Gorgons. There's nothing fancy about your army when you get it on the field. It is pure brute force.

I encourage you to give list building a shot, just for the mental exercise of seeing what the limits do to you. My first few tries were quite frustrating, untii I started scaling back all my modeling expectations and just focused on efficiency. Knowing what you are going to do ahead of time is pretty important AND I think this also is very in character with the list. The Krieg pin you in place, then run you over. Sometimes they come back and grind your face in the mud. There's nothing subtle about them.

And I like that.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Giant Bureaucracy overwhelms zippy Entrepeneurs
Yea listbuilding with the DKoK IS frustrating. My first list included all the toys i wanted and in the end i was at 3450pts without any AA. The 450pts to much where anupgraded Infantry Company but eventheni didn't had AA :D

BTW: What was the content of your Artillery Company? Earthshakers, Medusas or a mix?
Author:  Honda [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Giant Bureaucracy overwhelms zippy Entrepeneurs
Quote: 

BTW: What was the content of your Artillery Company? Earthshakers, Medusas or a mix?


The Artillery Company can only consist of Earthshakers.

E&C said that was to reflect the greater occurance of Earthshakers, i.e. fluff. I will model mine all as Medusas because I like that look better. Also the Earthshaker barrel can be used for Heavy flak.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Giant Bureaucracy overwhelms zippy Entrepeneurs
I remember. Makes sence. And yes the Heavy Flak uses the same barrel as the Earthshaker :)
Author:  zombocom [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Giant Bureaucracy overwhelms zippy Entrepeneurs
Engineers are an excellent way of grabbing the blitz.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  Giant Bureaucracy overwhelms zippy Entrepeneurs
Quote: 

I encourage you to give list building a shot, just for the mental exercise of seeing what the limits do to you. My first few tries were quite frustrating, untii I started scaling back all my modeling expectations and just focused on efficiency. Knowing what you are going to do ahead of time is pretty important AND I think this also is very in character with the list. The Krieg pin you in place, then run you over. Sometimes they come back and grind your face in the mud. There's nothing subtle about them.

And I like that.


I approve heartily of this.  :agree:
Author:  jfrazell [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Giant Bureaucracy overwhelms zippy Entrepeneurs
Quote: (Moscovian @ Nov. 19 2009, 19:54 )

What was the terrain like?  It seems that Samm Hain suffer from mounted syndrome (unable to hide in woods like other Eldar) so I was wondering if this was a factor.

Do you think that the Krieg list was balanced internally?  Were there certain choices that seemed obvious (to either take or not take at all)?

Terrain was moderate. Yes the SH suffered, not from direct fire but those barrages. What was zappingme more was the massed 88mm wannabees overwatch firing.  :ooooo:
Author:  Honda [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Giant Bureaucracy overwhelms zippy Entrepeneurs
Quote: 

Engineers are an excellent way of grabbing the blitz.


Not if you tell everyone.  :whistle:
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