The problem a "slightly higher" activation count army would face is that each Tau formations could probably annihilate each enemy formation due to smaller size... one thing that helped the Orks is that the Tau generally required 2-3 formations to eliminate an enemy formation.  

Against smaller Marine or Eldar formations, that "higher" count would've gone down fast!

Obviously this couldn't be done without having two different "Hammerhead" entries in the Tau list... but if you removed the "Support" option, you could still take AMHC formations and then *other* tank formations, so, honestly, that doesn't address the issue... it's the AMHC that allows "all tanks".

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Yeah, but one of the design philosophies of Tau was "synergies" to reflect how they work together with different elements; an all tank army doesn't really reflect that, *especially* for a "core" list.

Your response raises the question that Dobbsy asked in the Marines section: "Why not just put all the Scions of Iron stuff in a core Marine list and let people pick what they want?"  So, what's your answer to that?

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

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This is *exactly* my point though... the current Tau list doesn't require a Tau "tank list" to be created, except with "bigger formations"... the current Tau list can practically "do it all" as it is... the Scions and Minervan lists bring new formations and new units, and allow different play style from the "core" Imperial Guard and Space Marine lists, so they're not pointless, they're cool.

But the current Tau list already allows you to make a "cool" tank list and doesn't need anything else.

Those two tanks lists, and the Yme-Loc Eldar tank list, all have limitations on what one can use compared to their "parent" lists, they have a specialized focus... so, why would someone play with a "limited" Tau tank list with fewer options than use the "parent" list that allows essentially all the same options and more?

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

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This is going round in circles. Hena, you know perfectly well that there is no objection to a fully AV army, but that there is a perfectly reasonable objection to a fully skimmer AV army with long ranged shooting and decent armour saves.

Singling out one aspect and saying it's ok doesn't make the whole thing ok.

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http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

I agree.  And if Zombocom and I agree on anything, it has to be right.  

My earlier comments stand: the army should match the fluff of a 'typical' Tau fighting force and allow for variant lists.  Eldar could conceivably field nothing but Rangers, Orks could field nothing but Nobz, but those are not typical armies.  

Those extreme variants are better addressed in variant armies where the point values and list structure can be adjusted on their own.  Is anyone here seriously proposing that the Tau cannot compete if it didn't have the Armored Cadre as a core formation?  Or that their favorite list cannot be put together without it?  I'd like to see those lists and what people are WANTING to do which would be impossible without the AMHC.

Honda was right in removing the Human Auxilia because it was the simplest way to bring the FW to the forefront again.  Now that discussion is not done by a long stretch, but it has progressed far more since the Humans were taken out of the equation.

Take the AMHC out of the equation and I honestly believe you'd see a lot of things fall into line because of it.

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It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

The call to drop the AMHC came out pretty clear from the peer review if you read the thread. Its hardly a new call either.

As this didn't happen I think we can say the CS/Honda discussed this and the idea was rejected.

Were this leaves the list to go I'm not sure.

I'd just like them to publish the "design note" as to why it was rejected then.  The formation is completely capabale as a "support cadre" instead of *both* a "core" and a "support" formation.

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As this didn't happen I think we can say the CS/Honda discussed this and the idea was rejected

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Removing the AMHC from the current Tau list will *not* mean it can "only do one thing", it'll just mean that the core tournament list can't do an all skimmer, all AV army... there's still a near infinite number of other variations the list can produce... and you can still go "tank heavy" if you want to, you just have to pick your core Cadres with care.

All the Craftworld Eldar lists only have two "Core" formations, with various support options, and there's still an incredible variety of lists people put together.

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After following all the Tau discussions across the forum recently with some interest, I have taken the liberty of making a few changes to the V.5 list for use within my gaming group.  It's a basic copy and paste into word and and i am completely oblivious as to how to host documents online, otherwise i'd share.  Anyone who wants a look though can E-mail me.

The main changes are to army structure.  I've taken V.5 and done the following for the following reasons.

Removed the AMHC from core choices and transfered it directly to support choices as is.  I have also removed the HH support group and upped the support limit to 3 per cadre.

FWs and Crisis suits are the core of any Tau army and form the "killing blow" or Mont'Ka.  Tau army doctrine is one of aggressive defence.  They retreat in the face of the enemy and attack from afar, sucking the enemy in and weakening them before surging forwards to conduct the killing blow.  As such these 2 fms (Crisis and FWs)are esential to the Tau way of war.

Upped FWs to FF4+.  Upped crisis suits to FF4+, removed the fusion blaster as a ranged weapon and made it small arms MW.  Dropped crisis save to 4+

Not being involved in assaults is boring!  It's the main reason i stopped playing my epic Tau in favour of Eldar.  Crisis suits and FWs need a role and the killing blow is it.  Engagements are the best way to kill or cripple an enemy and the Tau should not have to miss out on that.  Even with the boost to their FF, FWs are still not dire avengers in effectiveness but can now hold their own.

Crisis suits are expensive and small fms but make excellent supporting fire fms - which is their role in Tau doctrine.  A well planned crisis/ FW engagement will hurt, particulary if the support fms have been used to weaken the enemy during the patient hunter part of the battle.  I see 2 distinct roles for Tau choices.  The support sections are there for the Kauyon "Patient hunter" whilst the core cadres are the Mont'Ka "Killing blow".  Points costs may need to be adjusted slightly but to make the Tau an interesting to play and characterful force befitting of their background i think these changes need to be made.  I dropped crisis saves to 4+ becuase, given their low nos and the prescence of the supreme commander it makes them less likely to be the instigators of an assault and make people want to choose FWs and use the 2 fms in conjunction.

Added the Moray back but placed in support.

This thing is a war engine and is the only reliable source of TK outside of aircraft.  It also compares favourably in both cost and effectiveness to the shadowsword IMO.  If people want to spam out on these, then fine but it now eats into their support allowance which is needed for HHs, markerlights etc.

Removed the SC option from the scorpion fish

The SC should be a crisis commander and should be in a core fm.  The scorpionfish option was a no-brainer and so had to go.  The inclusion of the SC in the crisis fm also adds to the "Not wanting to be the instigators of an assault" factor too.

There are likely to be minor tweaks to be made and found within the list but IMO these things take the list forward in a solid bound and form a good steady core to the list and give it direction and focus and seem to solve a lot of the problems being currently discussed across the forum.

Opinions?

You ought to post this in the Tau dev forums instead of in the battle reports area if you want more people to read/comment!

I agree with just about everything, except the Moray return... it's just not needed with the massive amounts of AT fire the Tau can generate.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Removing the AMHC from the current Tau list will *not* mean it can "only do one thing", it'll just mean that the core tournament list can't do an all skimmer, all AV army... there's still a near infinite number of other variations the list can produce... and you can still go "tank heavy" if you want to, you just have to pick your core Cadres with care.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment