Hey guys, let's get rolling on the Gargant Bigmob list... it's needed for a supplement!



I've attached the list as it stands to this post.


In post #2, I've outlined what changes have gone into V3.0 in consultation with Nealhunt.
In post #3, I've outlined what changes I'd like to implement in V3.1, for community discussion.

Please comment.

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Here are the changes that Neal & I agreed should go into Version 3.0, and a rationale behind each change.




1) Grot Attack special rule is out.

This rule has repeatedly been found to be unnessesary, and also overpowered. Removing it made a lot of sense.



2) Gargant discount is out. However, all Gargants come with a "free" Kustom Bitz swap.

This was part of a general process of simplifying and balancing the list.


3) Support formations are 2/gargant.

So as to focus on the Gargants, and not everything else.



4) Grotnoughts are out.

Historically, these were used only as Deathstrike fodder, being added to Gargant formations to take the first TK hit on the comparatively worthless Grotnought. As they hadn't achieved any kind of utility on their own, and also didn't have a model, we made the decision to remove them.




5) Kustom and Krawla Gargants are out.

As with Grotnoughts, originally in the SG days there were plans to make a new Kustom sized Gargant, and also a Krawla model. With no hope of either ever happening now, the units were removed. The transport ability of the Krawla was retained however as an upgrade, and any pre-existing Krawla scratchbuilds can be proxied as a Gargant with the Transporta upgrade.




6) Kustom Bitz upgrades have been completely redone.

The upgrade system is now a lot more simple.




6a) All Kustom Bitz now replace weapons.

This allows the weapon swaps to be on par with other options, whereas they were very unattractive previously compared to the "add on" upgrades (and remember, the first swap is free). Non-weapon upgrades were modified for balance as needed.




6b) A lot of the weapons were cut

They were of limited use and generally went against the abstraction principal of Ork lists.




6c) Several questionable upgrades were cut.

Again, this was in the aim of simplifying the list and focusing on the broad strokes rather than fiddly details.





6d) A second tier of Big Kustom Bitz upgrades were added for +50 points. This covers the bigger upgrades, but also has an option to take a second Kustom Bitz as well.

This gives another level of customization for greater specialization/optimization, but at a cost, much like the multi-weapon premium in the AMTL list. Gargants are now more customisable than they were under OGBM 2.0, despite the list of upgrades being significantly smaller.




6e) A transport option has been added as an upgrade.

This was so as to retain a transport type Gargant/Krawla, without having to have a whole new datafax for it.




7) The bommers are out, replaced with the DC3 WE bommer, a la the Forgeworld model.

This was because the DC3 WE bommer actually has a model we can use.

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These are the further changes I would like to introduce, along with rationales for each:



1 - Remove the unit upgrades from the Gargant formations.

Rationale: I can't see them ever being taken, really. The lesser units just slow down or add BM vulnerability to the Gargant (making it easier to break) whilst Stompas are too expensive to take.



2 - Likewise, remove the unit upgrades from the Supa Stompa formation, for the same reason.



3 - Remove Killa Kans, Dreadnoughts and Stompas from the Warband unit upgrades.

Rationale: My vision for this list would be to concentrate mainly on the biggest walkers (The Gargants and Supa Stompas), and I feel that Kans, Dreadnoughts, would detract from this theme.



4 - Remove the Stompa Mob and Snappa Mob formations.

Rationale: As with #3, I feel that the list would be better if it concentrated on the extreme ends of things (The big Gargants, and a few Infantry mobs) rather than having AV units in between too.
This style of list construction would fit well with my plan for the army lists in the Epic: Mechanicus Supplement, where I plan to have one list that concentrates on the walkers in the Kan to Supa Stompa range ("Gobgutz Badfang's Stompy Onslaught"), and another list that concentrates on the units in the Supa Stompa to Mega Gargant range (Gargant Bigmob).



5 - Remove the Tellyporta rule.

Rationale: Whilst I love Drop Roks, I've never been keen on teleporting Gargants into battle.
I feel it detracts from the uniqueness of Drop Roks.




6 - Remove the "More Dakka" Kustom Bit.

Rationale: I feel it overlaps with the Gattling Kannon upgrade too much, and doesn't have a good WYSIWYG way of showing the upgrade either.





So, that's where I'd like to take the list, with the intent of getting it into the Epic: Mechanicus Supplement and wrapped up in about six months.

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They have Supa-Zzappas (MW TK attacks) and Soopaguns (MW BP attacks), I don't think they lack for MW attacks.

Furthermore, what weapon model would you use?

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Yes they are. You've never played against Ork Gargants clearly. :-P



Yes they do.
This is just the document I inherited from Nealhunt; I'll be cleaning it up/replacing it with an easier to navigate version.


Not good enough.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

whoah, the mega gargant is non -experimental!

I'll be sad to see the walkers go - but if there's another list that is kan-mob heavy i can bear the loss. 9 stompas was always a nice start to the day. and a snappa mob was the obvious thing for a drop rok cargo.

Dying early WAS the role of grotnaughts! models could be made available, but it's not a desperate loss. If they'd never been there I wouldn't miss them.

Bomma can transport 6 stormboyz, without stormboyz being available in the list. I know it's for cross list compatability, but still.


typos - the mega gargant is incorrectly labelled as the old kustom gargant, and can you change the font on the green boxes to white for balck and white prinitng?

cheers.

I could go with all those changes

So way back in the day...

The list originally had 2 concepts, Gargants and Mekboy stuff. That second idea is the Orkamedies "legendary mekboy" angle and was far more pronounced than the current incarnation. Those didn't always jive. For example, the Zzap Fortresses and attendant Fortress Mobz, while mekky, detracted from the focus of the list. However, I think the idea of "Gargants plus crazy Mek stuff" is still a good concept.

It may also be a way to distinguish "the" OGBM list from the supplement list, so you don't end up with "just like that list, but one has more."


The options can be trimmed significantly, but I can see two possible uses. One of them strikes me as Orky and seems to fit the list.

The first is a token flakwagon that would hide behind the WE to avoid being targeted, because the list is light on AA. Of course, that may not be desirable so if it goes away, so be it.

The other would be for one of the smaller Krawla formations to have attached infantry, similar to tough/slower Fortress mobz. Having, say, Stormboyz that can jump out and CC an opponent who would otherwise like to clip the Supastompa Krawla would definitely be effective and seemingly orky. You could also do the same thing with separate formations using the WE transport rules, but that would require having lots of warband options. Allowing attached infantry keeps the option available but gargant-focused.


I don't think they will appear in Warbands enough to detract from the focus. I find it far more likely that people will take mechanized warbands to provide the speed Gargants lack.

Personally, I like the "russian doll" esthetic of a walkermob being transported in a gargant - big, walker, gargants, disgorgning smaller walker dreads and kans, which have in side them smaller walker orks and grots - but that may just be me.


No objection to cutting Snappa Mobz. It's probably overdue. I can live with the Stompas being cut (even though I kind of like them and think they are big enough).

I definitely like the Stompy Onslaught concept for a list.


I'd like to keep the Mekboy super-gadget idea to the extent reasonable. There doesn't seem to be a balance problem with the Tellyporta. Since we slashed the fast gargant options it might now have a niche. I'd like to see it tested a bit with the newer version.


I'm not married to it. I stuck it in for a FF-heavy option. If you like that idea, maybe a mid-ground would be less ranged firepower on the Gatling Kannon with more FF. If not, just cut it.

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Going back to the "how to distinguish between 2 gargant lists" issues, one possibility would be to go with a more "Mek Gadget" idea versus a more traditional Ork force. Something like...

Tellyporta deepstrike in Mek-theme, Drop Roks in the other.
Wyrdboy Tower AA (traditional) versus a "flakturne" battery (Mek)
Extra Power Fields upgrade (Mek) versus extra DC

Lots of other options exist as well.

Maybe different CC weapons - Snappa CC weapon (Mek) versus Ripper Fist
Maybe different TK weapons - Lifta Droppa versus Zzap gun
Maybe different warband options - Stormboyz, Kommandoes, how available Oddboyz are, etc.
Maybe different "extra" options for Gargant formations.
Maybe a "pre-built" Krawla package (to capture the submarine-krawla carriers in the Armageddon fiction), e.g. Krawla + X infantry as a formation for a slight discount.
Maybe look at aircraft/air assault options to be a bit different (warband choice obviously affects air assault options).

The new Wyrdboy tower does boost the AA power of the list quite a bit, albeit you have to pay 50pts to get it, but I could see AA picket Supa Stompas being fairly common.


A transported Warband that was a separate formation could do the same, be cheaper per unit, and also split off on its own at some point if it wanted, I don't see the advantage of the attached units really...?


Admittedly I do like that idea. :-)

But in practice, I think Dreadnoughts and especially Kans will remain near-extinct (A boyz unit and a Grot unit wins out 95% of the time when you have 25pts spare).

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Separate infantry is actually not cheaper. A Loota warband is 6 boyz + 2 grotz for 150. That will buy 6+6 as extras. A Big formation is about even. A Uge formation is cheaper than Extras, but when would it be tactically sound to transport it? Similarly, because the numbers in Gunzmobz don't line up quite right with the transport capacity (multiples of 5 versus 4), there's very little discount for them. Stormboyz formations, should you decide to include them, traditionally don't have discounts, either.

One advantage of attached units is that they always act together, even when dismounted. With separate formations, loading up immobilizes the WE for the turn. That makes attached formations much faster. On a double move you can mount-move-move-dismount-shoot and have all your troops fire and support with FF. 8 or 10 6+ shots isn't great, but it beats not having them, especially supporting an assault. Attached Big Gunz makes that even more attractive.

The other advantage is BMs. An attached formation counts all units for BMs/breaking. A WE transport only counts the WE. A 4DC Supastompa Krawla will break at 4BMs, trapping all the boyz inside it or dumping them out inconveniently. 4BMs is pretty easy to do. An attached formation of Supastompa Krawla + 8 units would not break until 12 BMs.

Gargant Krawla? I would probably not attach them. Not enough advantage and too many eggs in one basket.

Supastompa Krawla? Definitely a workable option to attach.


If they are only available to mixed formations, this is true.

I was thinking the other way - a Great Gargant krawla with as many attached units as I could fit inside.

So it'd be nearly the entire army in a single formation, but a formation that can drive to wherever it wants and then krump whatever it wants.

and yes, it'd loose horribly.
but in a fun way.


the More Dakka option i see being lots of little gun platforms all over the gargant - if the krew get bored they can take potshots at the little gits running around their feet.

the gatling cannon - could it be made something like 12 shots but 1 use only?
I think there's a forgeworld gatling cannon that keeps shooting if it keeps wounding, if you finish a unit you move to the next closest (even if it's your own). one use only, because after that the barrels are melted, the ammos gone and the gunner is too deaf to hear any new orders.

That's the one from the Stompa. Frankly it's extremely Orky but I'm not a big fan.

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Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.