Tactical Command
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

Feral Ork Madboyz - balanced?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=16754		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Feral Ork Madboyz - balanced?
When designing a list, it appears to be a common understanding that if anything needs a 0-1 restriction other than a SC, it is "broken" as the restriction is being used to controll its power. The other reason is due to keeping with fluff - only after the unit is balanced and priced correctly

So, in regards to madboyz - is the 0-1 restriction justified for fluff reasons only, or that having 6 Fearless CC4+ units for 100 points just broken?

Note: This base unit can be build to 12 units for 180 points, and then have the addition of up to 3 AA5+ MW5+ shots for 50 points a pop.

So are they restricted for any other reason other than such a unit being too good for their points and not having a pop-corn effect?

If I am correct in the above assumption (and that is all it is), is this not a concern to be reviewed and costed correctly?

I notice the Steam Gargant has the same restriction. Let's tackle one at a time...
Author:  Chroma [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Feral Ork Madboyz - balanced?
Quote: (frogbear @ Sep. 27 2009, 12:48 )

So, in regards to madboyz - is the 0-1 restriction justified for fluff reasons only, or that having 6 Fearless CC4+ units for 100 points just broken?

A large component of it is actually "fluff reasons" as, back in the day, the Orks would tend to pack all the, quite dangerous to all around!, Madboyz into their own groups and keep them segregated from "proper" Orks.  Additionally, Madboyz surviving long enough to be combat effective in a WAAAAGH! was also rare.

So, it's a flavourful unit/formation, not too powerful, but out of whack both balance-wise and flavour-wise if you could take "as many as you want".

P.S. They break really easily and don't have any leader so hold Blast markers for a LONG time.
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Feral Ork Madboyz - balanced?
So then it once again comes back to the question as to the 0-1 restriction; a balancing element or a fluff addition?

edit: chroma's post viewed only after this was posted, however questions below stand

Personally I believe it is a balance issue, and if that is the case, they should be appropriately costed. What is that cost? I have not looked into it, however when it's purchase (or 2nd purchase without a restriction) becomes a thought rather than a reflex, then I would think that the list is on the right track.  

Does no-one else see this as an issue?

Is there an AC for this list that can comment?
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Feral Ork Madboyz - balanced?
Quote: (Chroma @ Sep. 27 2009, 21:59 )

So, it's a flavourful unit/formation, not too powerful, but out of whack both balance-wise and flavour-wise if you could take "as many as you want".

P.S. They break really easily and don't have any leader so hold Blast markers for a LONG time.

If I charge this unit (fully fitted out with Madboyz) at a Warlord titan, I can hold it up for two turns at least. Does that not worry people that a 190 point unit can do such a thing - especially in an army that has no trouble achieving 12-15 activations if it so requires?
Author:  GlynG [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Feral Ork Madboyz - balanced?
Backgroundwise it make sense for them to be one small minority unit and I believe it's all fearless armies that people seem to have problems with rather than one or a few fearless units as lots of armies have these. They sound ok to me, a Feral army has some advantages but some distinctict disadvsntages.
Author:  Chroma [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Feral Ork Madboyz - balanced?
Quote: (frogbear @ Sep. 27 2009, 13:06 )

If I charge this unit (fully fitted out with Madboyz) at a Warlord titan, I can hold it up for two turns at least. Does that not worry people that a 175 point unit can do such a thing - especially in an army that has no trouble achieving 12-15 activations if it so requires?

They've got no (real) armour, they're going to die like flies... even before they get there, because they're slow.

I've never had it been a problem in any Feral Ork game I've participated in, never heard it complained about, and never seen it happen.  The Madboyz tend to get off one good fight, get reduced well below half and broken, and never rally again in most games I've played.

I tend to only take them because I like their concept, not because they're uber-effective.  They are a "fun" formation, not a "must have!" one.
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Feral Ork Madboyz - balanced?
Quote: (GlynG @ Sep. 27 2009, 22:11 )

They sound ok to me, a Feral army has some advantages but some distinctict disadvsntages.

Really? I thought the biggest problem with them was that they were one of the ultimate popcorn armies...
Author:  Blish [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Feral Ork Madboyz - balanced?
Quote: (frogbear @ Sep. 27 2009, 13:14 )

Quote: (GlynG @ Sep. 27 2009, 22:11 )

They sound ok to me, a Feral army has some advantages but some distinctict disadvsntages.

Really? I thought the biggest problem with them was that they were one of the ultimate popcorn armies...

Nope Ferals have no flyers and find it hard to deal with Titans unless my Maddboyz make it there and hold your Warlord up for a few turns.
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Feral Ork Madboyz - balanced?
Quote: (Chroma @ Sep. 27 2009, 22:14 )

and never seen it happen.  

Ah. Never go in without an example I say.

Here you go: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... 84;t=16383

One thing we always do is play with terrain - hence giving HtH forces a little extra survivability
Author:  Chroma [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Feral Ork Madboyz - balanced?
Quote: (frogbear @ Sep. 27 2009, 13:14 )

Really? I thought the biggest problem with them was that they were one of the ultimate popcorn armies...

Yeah, but their popcorn is slow to pop, tastes like crap, and gets lodged in corners a lot; all are distinct disadvantages.

Sure, they can have a *30* activation army... but it has no guns at all.  I've never seen anyone try it, not even in highly competivite venues.

Such an army has an extreme weakness to barrages/Drop Pods that make taking it to comeptition near suicide in most cases.
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Feral Ork Madboyz - balanced?
Quote: (Blish @ Sep. 27 2009, 22:18 )

Nope Ferals have no flyers and find it hard to deal with Titans unless my Maddboyz make it there and hold your Warlord up for a few turns.

Squiggoths and Orkesaurus' will have little problems with a Titan if they make BtB contact. I have just never allowed that to happen, that's all.
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Feral Ork Madboyz - balanced?
Quote: (Chroma @ Sep. 27 2009, 22:21 )

Yeah, but their popcorn is slow to pop, tastes like crap, and gets lodged in corners a lot; all are distinct disadvantages.

lol  

That was funny.

Good points Chroma. I do not have a problem with the army itself. Frankly, if I wanted to take an army to specifically beat such a list and prove a point, it would not be too hard at all.

I just thought I would question the Madboyz.

Thanks for your input.    :agree:
Author:  Chroma [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Feral Ork Madboyz - balanced?
Quote: (frogbear @ Sep. 27 2009, 13:19 )

Ah. Never go in without an example I say.

Here you go: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... 84;t=16383

Well, the World Eaters still won that game!   :laugh:

What I don't understand is, with drops, barrages, and orbital bombardment in play, why the WE player didn't chose a "corner" deployment to pack all those Ferals in even tighter to maximize carnage.
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Feral Ork Madboyz - balanced?
Quote: (Chroma @ Sep. 27 2009, 22:25 )

What I don't understand is, with drops, barrages, and orbital bombardment in play, why the WE player didn't chose a "corner" deployment to pack all those Ferals in even tighter to maximize carnage.

Friendly games and I am more interested in testing different units than being competative and winning at this time in my gaming.

Hence why I generally do not look for epic tournament wargaming.

The only reason I am turning up to the Melbourne one is to place a face to the many names that I have talked to on these lists   :;):
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/