Tactical Command
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Epic UK Ork changes
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=16652		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic UK Ork changes
Most of the changes are quite straightforward.

I'm really curious about the Oddboyz power field, though.  Can one of you guys who were involved comment on it?

It seems like a very inefficient use of points.  You're paying +50% to the unit cost for something which only adds a marginal amount of durability.  The added durability is really only measurable against MW/TK and it will degrade rapidly.  I understand that MW/TK early in the game is the main complaint about the forts being too vulnerable, so that would seem to make sense.  However, the internal balance seems off.

2 Oddboyz - 100 points, ~4 shields
1 Battlefortress - 115 points, 3 DC, 4+ save, firepower, more FF/CC, extra transport capacity

When you start looking at something like 2 formations with 2 Fort+shields versus a 1-fort/2-fort combo, the shields only help durability at all if the opponent can definitely get to the 1-fort formation first.  Of course, that benefit will still be partially offset by the extra fort that remains on the board.  For 15 points difference, I'd take the extra flexibility of the additional Battlefort in virtually any situation.

The only time it looks like Oddboyz are a better choice is if you know the enemy will definitely be able to bring MW/TK to bear early against a target of choice, without use of assaults (most MW/TK in assault is CC, bypassing the shields anyway).

Is it just the security that with the fields you won't get tapped by a lucky potshot?
Author:  Tiny-Tim [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic UK Ork changes
The problem comes from a fortress' save. 4+ is great, but not when facing MW & TK weapons. We discussed, as Taccoms has in the past, giving a fortress 5+ RA, but this was felt over the community as not a great change. Others have done the maths on this before.

We didn't want to make the fortress too good, but we wanted to be able to give it a greater initial chance of surviving. We don't see this as being a big change in the lists that we see in tournaments as it has a specialist role. Yes it is expensive compared to the basic cost. Yes it does degrade quickly. However it does allow a warband with fortress to be played aggressively in the first turn rather than hiding behind a piece of terrain.

You will also note that where the upgrade would be most effective, Speed Freak Fortress Mobz, it’s not allowed.
Author:  Tiny-Tim [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic UK Ork changes
Quote: (Rug @ Sep. 17 2009, 16:18 )

I would have rather seen D3 + 1 or even 3 powerfields as the suppa Zapp is still a better investment.

Perhaps, but you don't lose any initial armament for taking the fields as you do with taking Supa-Zzaps or Soopaguns.
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic UK Ork changes
Quote: (Tiny-Tim @ Sep. 17 2009, 16:22 )

Perhaps, but you don't lose any initial armament for taking the fields as you do with taking Supa-Zzaps or Soopaguns.

Er... "lose" armament from enhanced guns?  Doesn't it make their armament *better*?   :sulk:
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic UK Ork changes
Quote: (Chroma @ Sep. 17 2009, 16:52 )

Quote: (Tiny-Tim @ Sep. 17 2009, 16:22 )

Perhaps, but you don't lose any initial armament for taking the fields as you do with taking Supa-Zzaps or Soopaguns.

Er... "lose" armament from enhanced guns?  Doesn't it make their armament *better*?   :sulk:

He means that the TK/BPMW gun replaces one big gun, whilst if you take the EUK Power Fields upgrade you get to keep your full complement of 'big' guns.


I can't see this upgrade as particularly useful, considering the price paid.
Author:  Steve54 [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic UK Ork changes
In testing it has been a viable option - not one you would take every time but which you would take/or consider taking in some builds.
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic UK Ork changes
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 17 2009, 17:00 )

He means that the TK/BPMW gun replaces one big gun, whilst if you take the EUK Power Fields upgrade you get to keep your full complement of 'big' guns.

But you're not losing any shots... but gaining range and, potentially, better/more attacks.
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic UK Ork changes
Quote: (Steve54 @ Sep. 17 2009, 17:02 )

In testing it has been a viable option - not one you would take every time but which you would take/or consider taking in some builds.

What builds would consider it viable?  How is it being used to get its points back?

I'm not trying to be difficult.  I'm trying to figure this out.  In the OGBM I've been concerned about the power field option being underpowered compared to the other Mek options.  Having it proposed as a kind of fix here is a bit confusing.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic UK Ork changes
The way I see it, anything that would typically be shooting at a Fortress formation would generally be able to brush aside D3 power fields almost without noticing, so I too am having trouble seeing how to make best use of it, in comparison to a more 'point and shoot' upgrade like the MWBP or TK attack.
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic UK Ork changes
Quote: (Rug @ Sep. 17 2009, 17:47 )

or simply 3 (cancels out 3 Zapp shots).

Since a Supa-Zzap does d3TK hits, a single shot could eliminate all the Power Fields it it's only up to 3 Fields.
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic UK Ork changes
Quote: (Rug @ Sep. 17 2009, 17:47 )

TK shots and powerfield can almost be considered equal in value as they cancel each other out (apart from the fact you choose what you shoot at but not what shoots at you!)..... Thus IMO it should be either d3 + 1 (giving the possibility of 4 "uses" (you could get up to 4 zapp shots if the game goes long enough), or simply 3 (cancels out 3 Zapp shots).

A good demo of the superiority of zapp is to put a zapp fort up against a shield fort.

I don't see how that's a good demonstration. They both hold wildly different goals at that point. How do you test it? LOS, required movement actions (Doubling means 50% to hit with Zzzap), and a whole lot of other variables make it very hard to compare.

The way I see it, the main use for a PF GunFortress, is for the turbo-drive. If routinely playing with a substantial road network, the ability to move up to 105cm automatically. The Power Field means the errant shot isn't going to paste it and toast the crew. A Zzzap/Soopa isn't really beneficial in that role.

Morgan Vening
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic UK Ork changes
Quote: (Hena @ Sep. 17 2009, 17:24 )

Well only time you consider it is with Gun Fortress. I don't see it being any good on Gun Wagon or Big Gun.

The power field option is only available on the forts.
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