Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 3
  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

Big Gunz
rpr
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:16 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:32 pm
Posts: 516
They really suck. Compare them to units like IG Support Squad - worse FF, worse move, worse shots (one exception) .. yet they cost the same. In normal cases no one takes them except to take oddboyz - and now that its cost is going up, it is 100 pts for 10cm move no save infantry with really big gun and transport restrictions..

Big gunz should be something like 15cm move and AP4+/AT5+ or 2x AP5+/AT5+.

Similarily gunzwagon weaponry should be like that, too.

(now that the cost of either should no longer reflect the mandatory el cheapo oddboy...)
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:06 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm
Posts: 4893
Location: North Yorkshire

(Hena @ Oct. 25 2007,12:53)
QUOTE
More and more, I think that the Oddboy cost change is a bad idea :).

This is why these things are proposed and then tested. Remember that these changes are not cast in stone yet.

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Chroma
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:34 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Rug @ Oct. 25 2007,15:32)
QUOTE
It's also worth noting that Big Gunz cannot use the Mob rule - they really do suck.

This is the one thing I would change about Big Gunz...

I mean, come on, what's more inspiring to Orks than that sound of heavy weapons fire?!   :)

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
nealhunt
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:33 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Well, I'm on record as being a big fan of Big Gunz, so I can't exactly back down now...  :D

===

Big Gunz are not as good as IG Fire Support.  They're not supposed to be, and I think if there were any Ork units that could go toe-to-toe with IG for firepower that would be a mistake.

Orks are an attrition force specializing in assaults while IG (typically) is a "hunker down and shoot" style force.  Because of the difference in styles, Ork Big Gunz fill a much different role in the Ork force than Fire Support in the IG.  This is part of the problem with cross-army comparisons.  It's not that Big Gunz are as good as IG Fire Support on a point-per-point comparison in a vacuum.  It's that to the Ork army they are as valuable as the Fire Support Platoon is to the IG.

Another way to put it is that IG have tons of firepower options to replace the Fire Support if they want.  Orks don't.  By design the Orks have to pay a premium for that scarce resource.   "It's not a bug; it's a feature."


All that said, I think you're selling the Big Gunz short.  I've said for years that the IG Fire Support upgrade is one of the best values in the IG list so you're starting out by setting the bar pretty high.

Gunz have twice the AT power per unit - AT5 v AT6.
Orks have a better strategy rating.
When using them as they should be used (with the Waaagh bonus actions), they have a better activation Initiative.
Big Gunz can be taken as uniform formations while IG must purchase a company to get access to the Fire Support. Orks have additional customization options as well.

Those benefits add up.  A comparison of actual formations that can be fielded in the game looks dramatically different than simply comparing Gunz on a 1:1 basis.

Infantry co + support - 350 points
Uge Gunzmob - 325

IG have more units - 17 units to 15
Gunz have better firepower - same # of shots at AP5/AT6 v. AP5/AT5
same armor
Gunz are slower
Gunz are worse in assault (more due to # of units than FF value)
Gunz have better strat.
Initiative is in Gunz favor for activation, in IG favor for rallying.

I don't think there's any disputing that the Gunz are worse off, but that's not the sole determining factor.

The question is whether the whole package - lower points and intended premium on the Ork units - is out of line with the relative capabilities of the formatons.

Maybe it is.  But it seems pretty close to me.

_________________
Neal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Nicodemus
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:52 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:27 pm
Posts: 451
Location: Finland

(nealhunt @ Oct. 25 2007,17:33)
QUOTE
1) Gunz have twice the AT power per unit - AT5 v AT6.
2) Orks have a better strategy rating.
3) When using them as they should be used (with the Waaagh bonus actions), they have a better activation Initiative.

1) When you use your "better activation Initiative" their "twice AT power" bubble bursts.

2) Well, that is true.

3) So they should be used so that they cant possibly hit anything? After double they dont hit anything, and 10cm move means their assault range is whopping 25 cm and then they lose their cover. So they cant be used as assault formation, and because they are immobile they cant be used as assault support formation either (enemy who parks his/hers units too close can only blame her/himself). So they should be used as shooters, but because of their initiative they have to double or take big risk (and when they have just one blastmarker...) by trying to advance or sustain. So they suck at shooting too. How am I suppoused to use them "as they should be used"?

I used to know perfect way to use them as they should be used: give them so many odds that you can. Not because of tremendous firepower, mainly because zzzaps can actually HIT their target and I do want my shooty formation to hit, not just place plastmarker. Same goes with flaks, gunwagonz etc.

I dont think that Oddboyz should necessarily give Supa Zzaps or Soopaguns to "normal units" (leave them to Gunfortresses and Gargants) but some ability to HIT with their weapons. Like MW4+ or 2 BP. So you could make your gunwagonz or big guns shootier, not megashootier. Like Mekboy character upgrade to big gunz/gunwagons ? 35 points (MW4+ or 2 BP) and Oddboy for Fortresses ? 50 points and 75 points to Big Gunz/Gunwagonz (MW3+TKd3 or 2BP Makro).



Other thing could be that Big Gunz could be transported in Battlewagons 2 in one. So Battlewagon could transport 2 big gun. That would make possible to take 6 Big Gunz in 3 Battlewagons at 255 points (compared to 5 big guns in 5 battlewagon at 300).

Or just scrap the whole idea of 75 points for oddboy.  :devil:

_________________
Eradication of Earth's
Population loves Polaris
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
rpr
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:05 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:32 pm
Posts: 516

(nealhunt @ Oct. 25 2007,19:33)
QUOTE

Gunz have twice the AT power per unit - AT5 v AT6.

In my handbook IG has 2x AT6+ firepower, which is as good as 1x AT5+ in almost any situation... or better. Against infantry targets, they are double as good.

I understand the idea of 'orks should not hit anything or shoot anything' - which results in people taking normally max number of oddboyz to hit anything. So, basically the lower cost of oddboyz is reflected in higher cost of big guns and gunwagons. Likewise if we say that ork big guns should be more expensive than IG counterparts, there is obviously same reason why oddboyz are cheaper "than they should be" - if removed from their context.
Now their cost is balanced by the fact that Ork general is forced to take a pile of over-priced stuff to get oddboyz.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
rpr
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:23 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:32 pm
Posts: 516

(Rug @ Oct. 25 2007,21:13)
QUOTE
Does any of the ork list need changing?


Most probably not. But if it is changed by increasing the cost of oddboyz, limiting flakwagons etc. then it would need most probably changes to even that out..

(the increased cost of supa-stompa is ok by me and does not need counter-measures - it definately was too cheap .. it is still cheap, but you still need to take a bit over-priced stompas to get it... a bit like oddboyz in other mobs =)
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
nealhunt
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:35 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
There is a brief discussion of Big Gunz strategy and tactics in the How to Build a Bad Moon Army article in Fanatic.  There was a thread on here with an expanded tactics section which I cut for the submission, but the search function is giving an error.

A quick and dirty version from a thread on the SG boards: I like Big Gunz. There are basically 3 ways to use them:

1) Cheap formations/activations. I call this the "popcorn" tactic because the formations will break as soon as someone looks at them crossly. However, their real purpose is to be a nuisance and this succeeds.

2) Fire Support. This should be pretty obvious. Put them someplace with a good line of fire and shoot anything which comes in range.

3) Aggressive attack. This is my preferred method. Consistently double move them forward, shooting as you go. When you get in assault range, initiate FF.

As far as how to field them, tactics 2 and 3 require a minimum of a Big mob, preferrably Uge. Because Big Gunz don't count for MobUp, put Nobz with them to remove more BMs when you do successfully rally. Always keep them in terrain as much as possible for the to-hit mods and cover saves.

You can also do a "faux" Gunzmob by using a basic Warband and adding Gunz as upgrades. It's more expensive and has less firepower for the points, but you gain a lot of durability.


As to whether you should put them in your army, that will depend on your style. As I said, I like them and take dedicated formations, but many people dislike them, refusing to take them at all, and probably the majority simply use them as point-filler like Alansa said.


The Ork Big Gunz was the original popcorn army.  It's devastating with Zzaps and viable even without them.

In addition to Gunzmobs formations from the core list, I've also made frequent use of a "shooty" Speed Freeks warband.  It features the much-maligned Gunwagons and Big Gunz.  Since it's based on the Warband, it even buys them at the full Extras cost.  It is a consistently good performer as a base of fire formation for the Freeks.  It does best under 30cm but it has enough firepower to threaten out to 45cm and averages ~6 hits in a firefight.

2 Nobz
3 Boyz
4 Big Gunz
4 Trukks
4 Buggies
Battlewagon
2 gunwagon
2 flakwagons
~500 points

_________________
Neal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Nicodemus
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:43 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:27 pm
Posts: 451
Location: Finland

(Rug @ Oct. 25 2007,19:13)
QUOTE
Does any of the ork list need changing?

No, it does not. (Apart from Supastompa pricerise)
?


Actually everybody who I know that also plays Epic in Finland has agreed with that (apart from Supastompa pricerise) (even those who dont come here or SG site).




_________________
Eradication of Earth's
Population loves Polaris
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
nealhunt
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:39 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

(rpr @ Oct. 25 2007,19:05)
QUOTE

(nealhunt @ Oct. 25 2007,19:33)
QUOTE

Gunz have twice the AT power per unit - AT5 v AT6.

In my handbook IG has 2x AT6+ firepower, which is as good as 1x AT5+ in almost any situation... or better. Against infantry targets, they are double as good.

I explained why that is an invalid comparison.

IG get a discount for formation upgrades.  You're cherry picking a discounted upgrade unit cost and comparing it to a basic unit cost in the other army.

Look what happens if you take the Gunzmob discounted upgrade cost (+5 Gunz for +100 points = 20 points) and compare it to the individual stock IG trooper at the basic unit cost from the IG infantry company (250 - 25 for commander abilities/13 units = ~17):

Same durability
Same FF/CC
Gunz have 2x AP fire, 4X AT fire
Better strategy
A wash on Initiative
Gunz slower

According to that comparison, IG basic troopers are wretchedly overpriced.  They should only be ~12 points each.  The company should cost about 200 points, possibly less.  Or to look at it the other way, Big Gunz must be 20% too cheap.

We should downgrade Big Gunz immediately!

====

You can't take things out of the army list context and compare them.  You have to compare them as they can actually be purchased.

You can't buy cheap Big Gunz without the core mob and you can't buy cheap IG Fire Support without the company.  Any comparison that assumes you can do so will be useless.

_________________
Neal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:45 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
The Flak gun


Flak guns for Ork Big Guns would be cool. :)

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
nealhunt
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:03 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
BTW, my apologies if I'm testy today.  The number of hours of sleep I've had in the last couple days can be counted on one hand.  I should probably just not post any more until tomorrow.

_________________
Neal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 3
  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net