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Oddboyz and ork mobs
Chroma
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:40 pm 
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(Hena @ Oct. 11 2007,18:02)
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The current suggestion of Oddboyz is 75 points. Within the Ork mobz, I think this is getting too high.

1. They have to buy the big gun unit so total cost is actually 100.
2. Their range is 60cm against 30cm of the rest of the Orks so they are easily suppressed and thus rendered useless.

So I would hope that the Oddboyz for 75 points on Ork Mobs would include the big gun. So the entry would be

0 - 1 Big Gun unit with Oddboy +75 points

I've never stuck Big Gunz (and the subsequent Oddboyz) into a regular Warband because their 10cm move *really* slows things down.  If you've doing a "mechanized" Warband, you can still stick the Oddboy onto an added Gunwagon or Gunfortress, and this proposal wouldn't allow that.

Personally I've got no problem with paying 100 (Big Gun + 75 point Oddboy) or 105 (Gunwagon + 75 point Oddboy) for 2BPMW or 3+TK(d3)... still totally worth it.

I've only used Oddboyz in Mekboy Gunzmobz and Blitz Brigades with any frequency.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:56 pm 
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(Hena @ Oct. 11 2007,18:49)
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Even more reason not to upgrade the cost is that it's not that used as is :).

For me, it's the 10cm move that keeps them out of Boyz Mobz... In a Gunzmob, they're all the same speed, and in a Blitz they're... all the same speed!  *laugh*

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Markconz
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:41 pm 
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Against any change to Neal's proposals here. Ork Oddboy big gun in a normal warband? Not likely to be chosen because they slow everything down, unless it's on a wagon.

However I did play a series of 3K games against a mate who had an army that was solely warbands and fightabombas, with a single Landa.  He did have some supazzaps spread through some of the warbands (4 or 5 guns total I think). It wasn't actually a bad army. Just so much of it and the principle was enemy AT, MW and TK guns are basically neutered (can kill nothing or just cheap infantry stands)!

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Markconz
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:03 am 
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It's like your on another planet Hena. I really don't get what on earth you are saying. It's been discussed for years and I'm glad Neal's finally chosen one option out of many, so we can playtest it to death. Who ever said it was 'accepted', nothing is accepted for ages yet as far as I am concerned.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:28 am 
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Which is why it is important to lock it down and choose one to test.

And they have been discussed for ages if you had paid any attention.  In fact I even asked for a definitive list of revision proposals for orks about this same time a year ago.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:32 am 
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Eldar needed a lot of work and came out later.

Orks needed not a lot of work and came out earlier.

Both have been discussed. Both will need future work.

Comments I've seen indicate that most want a finalised playtest version soon - not more of the same endless circular debates, go nowhere, no results, piss everyone off, ERC bs. You don't, in fact you thrive on such debates, but that seems more like your standard isolated response across rule domains to me.

Look at it this way, soon there will be a V1.0 of EVERYTHING to criticise in preparation for V2.0. You should be in raptures at the thought of so much to debate....
If you don't appreciate it at least I know hundreds of others definitely appreciate having it.

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rpr
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:15 am 
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Speaking of all these Ork changes...
When I check out my Ork army I used in a tournament last Summer, these changes mainly have changed it from 3000 point army to 3150 army, plus 4 formations have been made "illegal" (which is mainly cosmetic in this case, too many flakwagons...)

Did it get anything in return for the 5% cost increase? Nope.

So, is there really need to downgrade Orks by 5%?

What I seek here is that if things are made costier, maybe something should be given in exchange to keep balance between army lists. I do not recall that Orks are getting anything in return... (except possibility to field big or huge stompa mobs).

(as a general note, I think all the work done here is great. Whatever the result is, it is definately better than the original ones, and I will move to use them. I just try to minimize things to gripe about in the upcoming new rules =)
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Markconz
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:54 am 
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(rpr @ Oct. 12 2007,10:15)
QUOTE
So, is there really need to downgrade Orks by 5%?

What I seek here is that if things are made costier, maybe something should be given in exchange to keep balance between army lists. I do not recall that Orks are getting anything in return... (except possibility to field big or huge stompa mobs).


Where did your points increases come from? Oddboyz and Supastompas by any chance? If you feel hard done by maybe you should talk to eldar players!  :;):

Also it's not a downgrade of orks, it's a downgrade of certain ork units that are overpowered. It would make no sense to then overpower other ork units to try and make up for it!

Also note that your Soopas have actually got considerably better with the MW Barrage rule change - you'll be getting 100% more kills against Armour in typical situations.

Believe me - I'm an Ork fan, first epic army and favourite epic army. I have 12 Zzaps and 12 Soopa's, and have used about 6 in every game ever since EA was released. That experience is why I support the change. (Actually I'd prefer to just downgrade their stats, but I'm happy to go with community will on it all).

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rpr
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:37 pm 
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(Markconz @ Oct. 12 2007,13:54)
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Where did your points increases come from? Oddboyz and Supastompas by any chance? If you feel hard done by maybe you should talk to eldar players!  :;):

Also it's not a downgrade of orks, it's a downgrade of certain ork units that are overpowered. It would make no sense to then overpower other ork units to try and make up for it!


Yes it does. Obviously our sense of army balance work in different way.
If an army has overpowered units, everyone uses them. If we then take them away or make them more expensive, the entire army becomes weaker. If we would make Thunderhawks cost 400 points a piece, would this keep (general) Space Marine armies in balance to other armies? No, as most Space Marine armies need Thunderhawks and if we make them more expensive, the total power of the army goes down. And this is what now happens with Ork army, or how often you see Ork armies without oddboyz?

I have SM, IG, Eldar and Chaos in addition to Orks. I would just love to see them balanced when compared to each other, and yes, oddboyz and supastompas were possibly too cheap - at least supa-stompa with new MW rules - but then Battle/Gun Fortresses, Gunwagons, Big Gunz seem overpriced.. so overpricing of some things were countered by underpricing of some other.

But all of this said, I do not very strongly object these changes, just hoping that there could be some counter-balancing, like..:
- gunzwagon guns 2x 5+/5+ or 1x 4+/5+
- fortress cost 100/125
- big gunz movement 15cm

Naturally my observations are of limited time and scale. But if the Orks has been considered as one of the most balanced armies, if it is nerfed then how would this NOT affect the overall balance situation? If there is general long time observation that "Orks seem to be a bit better than other armies", then one-way downgrading them makes sense - as this is the sum effect of downgrading certain popular units.
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