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Ork Flakwagons
nealhunt
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:31 pm 
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There is some discontent about the state of Ork Flakwagons.  As the loss in firepower of a Flakwagon as compared to a Gunwagon is minimal, the range usually easily compensated for, the preponderance of wagons tends to be Flakwagons rather than the assumed "standard" gunwagon.  Similar to the "Zzap Brigade" issue, the "Flak Brigade" as a horde of flakwagons is a very common sight in ork armies.

I see 3 options to deal with this:

1)  Leave it as-is.  It's not a big deal.
2)  Adjust the Flak Gun stats slightly so it is less favorable when compared to the Big Gun.
3)  Adjust the army list to reduce the number of "slots" available for Flakwagons.

#1 is obviously easy.  It sort of relies on the idea that a Gunwagon does not necessarily need to be seen as the "standard" wagon and that the Flakwagon can be seen as equally "Orky."

#2 seems straightforward but because of where the stats are, it will clutter up the datafax or just be odd.  The ideas that have been tossed around are something like:
AP5+/AT6+ AND 2xAA6+
or
2x AP6+/AT7+/AA6+
The former has the split line and the latter relies on a base 7+ to hit, which is different than any other weapon in the game.

#3 would entail removing the Flakwagon from the options for the Blitz Brigade.  This would still allow massive "Flak Brigades."  However, because the Flakwagons would be purchsed solely from the "Extras" column of the army list there would be no discount for Big/Uge mobs and the 0-1 options would be limited.


I am highly conflicted on this.  I'd like to gather opinions of the pros/cons of each.  I may run this on a poll eventually because I know there are people who will vote and not discuss, but I would still like to have discussion first.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:55 pm 
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I like the idea of number 3.  I cant recall another army where flak can be bought as a "core" troop choice, so it is in keeping with the wider Flak ethos.  I imagine you'll see plenty of 10 strong mos with equal numbers of flak and gunwagons if this happens.

On option 2 I prefer 2a to 2b as it just seems better to avoid the precedent of having a base 7+ weapon.

As another thought- what about removing teh troop capacity- this would also help reduce the volumes of them being taken in normal mobs.

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TheLimey
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:56 pm 
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If you are raising the question, I don't feel that number one is an option.

It is obviously a problem, and something Jervis didn't want from his notes on why the Ork list is abstracted (the Pulsa Rocket question).

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Chroma
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:13 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Sep. 05 2007,14:31)
QUOTE
#3 would entail removing the Flakwagon from the options for the Blitz Brigade. ?This would still allow massive "Flak Brigades." ?However, because the Flakwagons would be purchsed solely from the "Extras" column of the army list there would be no discount for Big/Uge mobs and the 0-1 options would be limited.

As a long-time Ork player, this is my preferred approach, even if it is more "limiting" in a sense.

Just pulling the flakwagon from the "core units" of the Blitz Brigade will make a difference, I feel: having to pay the 35 point premium for them, and the subsequent loss of "0-1" options if you want a lot, should go a long way towards lessening their appearance... and Warbosses can still buy 'em if they want 'em, just gotta take "cuts" elsewhere.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:03 pm 
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I don't see that the stats are a problem just the options to buy them that make them problematic.

I'd prefer #3 myself since this seems to directly address the problem. Modding the stats to fix this seems like the wrong approach

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Markconz
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:57 pm 
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3 and second choice 2.

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Irondeath
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:40 pm 
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#3 is quite elegant IMO.

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TheLimey
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:50 pm 
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3 gets my vote as well

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Steve54
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:10 pm 
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1 gets my vote - it isn't a big problem and any restriction on flakwagons will lead to even more fighta-bommas restrictions of which are one of the few things that really need tweaking in the Ork list.

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Dave
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:11 pm 
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#3 as well.

I would be very against changing the datasheet of the flak wagon.

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rpr
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:22 am 
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I would go for 1 or alternatively so that 0-1 of core units in blitz brigade can be flakwagons (thus, in a big blitz brigade, 0-2 of the core tanks can be flak wagons). I strongly object pure choice 3 but seem to be in minority here..

#2 could be okay too, but not that 7+ thing :]
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yme-loc
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:00 am 
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Personally I cant see that flak wagons are that much of a problem, perhaps you should include a fourth option increase the effectiveness of gun wagons - now they are rubbish.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:07 pm 
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On the few tournament occasions that I have used Big Blitz Brigades full of Flakwagons, they have appeared scary to my opponents and their flyers in the first instance. However after flying through them on a couple of attack runs my opponents have become quite blase about them. Getting a hit is usually a great event for me let alone shooting something down.

Anyway I don't just field large numbers of Flakwagons to rush around shooting aircraft down I field large numbers of Flakwagons to roll large numbers of dice to hit.

I do not see this as a problem unit or choice for Blitz Brigades - Option 1 Leave them alone

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:02 pm 
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(Tiny-Tim @ Sep. 06 2007,12:07)
QUOTE
Anyway I don't just field large numbers of Flakwagons to rush around shooting aircraft down I field large numbers of Flakwagons to roll large numbers of dice to hit.

I think this is really more the matter - is it Orky versus is it balanced.

I don't think it's a serious balance issue for the most part.  The Flakwagons just fit marginally better within the force org for the core list.

Most of the objections are over the perception that the Gunwagon should be the default, generic Ork AV and that Flakwagons should be more specialized.

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