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Ork Flakwagons
Dave
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:45 pm 
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As long as they aren't dropped entirely from the core choices, that's fine.  0-1, leave as is, whatever.

Just as a thought... Since most people prefer them to gunwagons, what are people thoughts of just making them a gunwagon upgrade for 5 points?  That way you could remove them from the Core Units section and add "Any Gunwagon may be upgraded to a Flakwagon for +5 points." to the Extras section.

?

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:26 pm 
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I really do not see the problem with Flakwagons. I have turned up to a tournament with 11 Flakwagons and after the inital shock people just got on playing against them. It isn't as if they are that good.

My vote is still to leave them alone.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:44 pm 
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(Hena @ Oct. 11 2007,13:27)
QUOTE
Change from 4 -> 1 is quite huge for something that isn't required for balance. So in this case I think it's overkill and shouldn't be done.


Well, usually it was "3", if you were going to max out... as you need a Gunwagon to carry the Oddboy... :D

I'd never actually fielded or seen the "Flakwagon Brigade" in any of my time playing...

I usually just field two Flakwagonz in a Big BB anyway, so none of this really affects my play style at all.

I went back through a bunch of old army lists.  I also did a search of online army lists that people had posted.  There were literally no formation in any army list I could find that included more than 2 flakwagons per brigade.  This wasn't an exhaustive investigation by any stretch of the imagination, but it's still pretty surprising that nothing turned up after the level of complaints about how ubiquitous the flakwagons were.  The only difference a 0-2 restriction would have made would be in "pure" flak brigades which I've seen mentioned, but none in the posted army lists I found.

I considered the 0-2 suggestion.  Tim was in favor of it, as opposed to 0-1.  It is, however, seemingly pointless as it affects only an extremely tiny minority of formations.  If 0-2 is acceptable, then we shouldn't make any change at all, because it is effectively no change.

Aside from the 1-2-1 gun-flak-zzap brigades, even the 0-1 restriction on flak makes very little difference.  In the formations where it does make a difference, the change to a Gunwagon doesn't affect the performance of the formation to an appreciable extent.  Some sample formations from some of my lists:

Bad Moonz Tankboyz - 10-2
Bad Moonz Evy Rollaz - 2-2-Gunfort w/ Zzap (changing to 3-1-Gunfort is no big deal)
Evil Sunz Tankerz - 8-4 (again, 9-3 is not an appreciable change)
Evil Sunz Evy tanks - 6-2-2 Gunforts w/ Zzaps
Deth Skullz Tankerz - 10-2-2 Gunforts w/ Zzap
Goff Tankboyz - 6-2
Speed Freeks Waaaagonz - 12-3 Speedstas
Speed Freeks Tank Boyz - 6-6-2 Gunforts-2 speedstas (9-3 change is the greatest of any formation I found and there is little practical effect)
Speed Freek Rollaz - 3-1-1 Speedsta
Blood Axe Tillery (from my BA list) - 2-2-8 lobbawagons

One of Tiny Tim's tournament lists included a formation that was 4 Flakwagons and 4 Deth Koptas.

So, in total, of all the Blitz Brigade formations I found, in a wide range of army lists, there were only 3 that would be affected in a substantial way by the 0-1 restriction - the 1-2-1 Zzap brigade, pure Blitz Brigades and TT's Flak/Kopta formation.  Of those 3 compositions, only the Zzap brigade appears with any frequency.

If a preponderance of flakwagons is a problem, it requires 0-1.  If it's not a problem, we leave it alone completely.

I'm leaning towards the opinion that the case has been overstated and it's not a problem.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:15 pm 
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To be fair Neal, Tim's list had two Blitz brigades of 4x Flakwagonz, 4x Deth Koptas. In addition he had two 'Uge Warbands and a Big warband each with a further 2x Flakwagonz - so he actually had 14x Flakwagonz and a total of something like 20x Skorchas! (Tim confessed that he would have had more but didn't have the models! It was a real pig to play against; the memory still hurts after 18 months ?:p ).

Having said that, I do not remember the Flakwagonz actually doing much against my aircraft, so as you say there may not be much of a case.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:01 am 
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(Ginger @ Oct. 11 2007,15:15)
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Tim confessed that he would have had more but didn't have the models!

Exactly.

It's against the background, it's gives cheesy results in game, and it's against the model range (which was never designed with flakwagonz being your first choice rather than an occasional  addition). There have been dozens of different gunwagonz produced and only a couple of flakwagon variants.  

Just leave it at 0-1 (or even better change it to 0 which was your first proposal).  It is not as though players still can't buy as many flakwagonz as they want - they just have to pay appropriate points for them.

Either that or upgrade the gunwagonz/downgrade the flakwagonz in some fashion.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:28 am 
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(Markconz @ Oct. 12 2007,00:01)
QUOTE

(Ginger @ Oct. 11 2007,15:15)
QUOTE
Tim confessed that he would have had more but didn't have the models!

Exactly.

It's against the background, it's gives cheesy results in game, and it's against the model range (which was never designed with flakwagonz being your first choice rather than an occasional ?addition). There have been dozens of different gunwagonz produced and only a couple of flakwagon variants.

Oops - I can see how one might misread what I wrote :)  - - - - - Tim was referring to the insufficient number of Skorchas, not the Flakwagonz. It is one of the few Ork units with good FF, and is really horrible to fight against as they can nearly always get into combat. I was using Eldar, trying to "clip" his formations - very unsuccessfully :D

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Markconz
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:21 am 
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Lol! Yes only reason skorchers are not seen more often is the SG pack size.

I do like my pure buggy formation though :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:46 am 
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(Markconz @ Oct. 12 2007,00:01)
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Just leave it at 0-1 (or even better change it to 0 which was your first proposal).  It is not as though players still can't buy as many flakwagonz as they want - they just have to pay appropriate points for them.

If I were to do anything with Flakwagonz, I would probably remove it entirely from the basic formation structure too (Only have it available as an Upgrade).

Can't say as I'm a fan of 0-1 restrictions, although at least these would scale (I'm looking at you, Chaos War Engines).




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rpr
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:57 am 
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I would still prefer that gunzwagon is made better - now the real power lies in oddboy, dflak is then taken as mandatory flier harassment.

If gunwagon is given armor 4+, that would also make oddboy better - not good, but acceptable if it is now +75... Maybe make gunwagon 45cm AP 4+/AT 5+, as someone suggested, now that would make it interesting choice.
Or 2x 45cm 5+/5+  (still not that good when compared to predators, for example)
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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:35 pm 
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I did try using 3 Flakwagons and a Supa-Zzap gun in three formations for one tournament, but these were there to increase the number of activations my army had as well as hunt lone war engines. My opponents recognised this and the formations were quickly broken or destoryed in the games that I played.

I still do not see the need to restrict this unit.

Oh and to fans of my Speed Freak army, I now have a further 14 Skorchas waiting to be painted ? :devil:




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Warphead
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:23 am 
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Don't change any stats, just restrict flak wagons a little bit more in the army list. The Ork army list or flak wagons are not broken. They just need a little twist here and there.
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alansa
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:34 am 
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Just a quick one to say I for one don't have any problem with the flak-wagon stats.

For me it's a pure fluff thing: I don't believe it should be possible, or at least easy, to have more flak wagons than gunwagonz or battlewagonz.

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