Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 2 of 3
  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Big Gunz
Nicodemus
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:30 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:27 pm
Posts: 451
Location: Finland

(nealhunt @ Oct. 25 2007,19:35)
QUOTE
1) Cheap formations/activations. I call this the "popcorn" tactic because the formations will break as soon as someone looks at them crossly. However, their real purpose is to be a nuisance and this succeeds.

2) Fire Support. This should be pretty obvious. Put them someplace with a good line of fire and shoot anything which comes in range.

3) Aggressive attack. This is my preferred method. Consistently double move them forward, shooting as you go. When you get in assault range, initiate FF.

1) Ok, so they are cheap nuisance. That is very true.

2) You mean place blastmarkers on anything that comes in range? Because of superior initiative they cant advance or sustain (well, they can try to sustain, fail and shoot one gun less and have blastmarker...). Of course this is great tactic if you have Oddboys with them, but even then _big gunz_ themselves are as useles as always (odds can hit their targets even when doubling, big guns cant).

3) So place some blastmarkers, run (whopping 10 cm!) ?out of cover and get killed without save in the open?

They move so little that they _cant_ choose their target, but enemy can choose whether she parks her vulnerable formation too close to big gunz.

I dont want to sound like a broken record, but you havent tell me how to score hits with AP/AT6+ or survive assault without save with small and almost immobile formation.


2 Nobz
3 Boyz
4 Big Gunz
4 Trukks
4 Buggies
Battlewagon
2 gunwagon
2 flakwagons
~500 points


That seems quite good. I shall test that next time I play with Freeks ( I desided to play with something else until this "lets nerf Orks!" has either been "set in stone" or gets forgotten as it should (or if by some miracle people will make big gunz and gunwagons worth taking without oddboy, but I doubt that)).

_________________
Eradication of Earth's
Population loves Polaris
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:57 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm
Posts: 4893
Location: North Yorkshire
The thing that I ind about big guns is that they fill a role, either with or without Oddboyz.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the SF changes.

Apart from the changes to Stompas and Supa-Stompas I don't think that we need to change the ork list at all.

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
rpr
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:00 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:32 pm
Posts: 516

(nealhunt @ Oct. 25 2007,22:39)
QUOTE

You can't take things out of the army list context and compare them.  You have to compare them as they can actually be purchased.

For some reason this did not apply to oddboyz when their cost was upped...? :]  

Well, this is not going anywhere.. let's say that big gunz and gunwagons are niche product that are good sometimes for their cost, most of the time they are not. Other similar units do exist, like Howling Banshees in Eldar list.

As such, you can leave them, as they are, and most of the Ork armies will not have any big guns. Fine by me. The move could be fixed to 15cm, but that is minor issue (mainly as no other support weapons are slower in other armies - these still have lots of disadvantages as they cannot be transported very well)

There is not exactly any need to change anything in ork list except supastompa and possibly allow bigger stompa mobs. You can - if you really need to - increase the cost of oddboyz to 75. The result is not that major, in a 3000 point battle 100 points more/less will not be obvious until tens of games, other factors are much more dominant.

For the flakwagon limit in blitz brigade: flakwagon is not overpowered. The reason why people pick multiple flakwagons:
1) gunwagon is crap and 2) flakwagon flak is utter crap, you need many of them to pose any threat except nuisance of a blast marker. I'm mainly against the flakwagon change because I have painted my units so that I have more flakwagons and far less gunwagons - isn't that the capital offense to force players change their armies? :]

Next time I play Orks I'm going to try an army without any oddboyz. I do not care if they would cost 50 or 75 extra a piece, they just do not fit to this setup (I do not have a single gunwagon, gunfortress or big gun in that army..)
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:20 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
How many Flakwagons in your army?

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Nicodemus
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:03 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:27 pm
Posts: 451
Location: Finland

(Tiny-Tim @ Oct. 26 2007,08:57)
QUOTE
I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the SF changes.

By SF you mean Speed Freaks?

Heh, actually I have no idea of what they were before changes, but I cant see anything wrong in them now (apart from flakwagon being 0-1). Speedfreaks should definedly have full acces to Flakwagons because fluffwise they should not be only in the mercy of Fightabommas. I can see Ghazgull keeping Gargant Faktories and Fightabomma-airports up and running, but Speed Freaks dont keep in same place long enough to have aircraft of their own (wait! I shall build Gunfortress/aircarrier for them!).

I dont like Speedstas powerfield (it brings too much unnecessary bookkeeping), but it was not part of changes so is not an issue here (?). But I could drop the fields alltogether and change the Kannon to MW3+, same price.

I tried Speed Freaks just few days before and got my butt kicked, mostly because I killed my Supreme (I have to make BIG Boss Pole to him to make him more easily to spot) in first engagement, could not hit Dark Eldars because of that whatever -1 to hit shield and few critical failed 2+ initation rolls.

Great thing about SF is that Speedsta is not an characterupgrade but is unit (or have I understand something wrong?).

When I compared Kults to Warband they seemed both good compared to each other and to their points.

And I love fortressmobs fluffwise, what fits better to my Bad Moonz themed Speed Freeks?

_________________
Eradication of Earth's
Population loves Polaris
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Markconz
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:10 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

(rpr @ Oct. 26 2007,08:00)
QUOTE
I'm mainly against the flakwagon change because I have painted my units so that I have more flakwagons and far less gunwagons - isn't that the capital offense to force players change their armies? :]

Interesting....  :;):

Most long term players have the ratios vastly the other way around of course, and the model ranges have always had many many more gunwagon than flakwagon model variants. The fact you have unfluffily gone the other way under the current rules is just more evidence that there is definitely a problem.


Next time I play Orks I'm going to try an army without any oddboyz.


I think this is a worthwhile exercise and I shall be doing the same. I do think gunwagonz and big gunz are easily worth the points with 75 point oddboyz included, and overpowered with 50 point oddboyz. Gunwagonz and big gunz without oddboyz I haven't used much before (except big gunz a few times) and I want to try that out.

_________________
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Nicodemus
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:35 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:27 pm
Posts: 451
Location: Finland

(Markconz @ Oct. 26 2007,10:10)
QUOTE
The fact you have unfluffily gone the other way under the current rules is just more evidence that there is definitely a problem.

Well, yeah. Gunwagonz suck, fix that! :)


Other reason could be ofcourse that before there were no aircraft. Now there are so even orks need groundflak, and because there are no choises so ofcourse flakwagons are popular. And because gunwagonz are crap.

And what do you mean "unfluffy"? What unfluffy is in wagon with loud shooty gun?




_________________
Eradication of Earth's
Population loves Polaris
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
rpr
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:47 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:32 pm
Posts: 516

(Markconz @ Oct. 26 2007,12:10)
QUOTE

Most long term players have the ratios vastly the other way around of course, and the model ranges have always had many many more gunwagon than flakwagon model variants. The fact you have unfluffily gone the other way under the current rules is just more evidence that there is definitely a problem.


Yes, there is, it is called a crap gunwagon.

As a side-note, I have played Orks since SM times.. but most my painted tanks are battlewagons (the old skool).
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
rpr
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:55 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:32 pm
Posts: 516

(rpr @ Oct. 26 2007,13:47)
QUOTE

Yes, there is, it is called a crap gunwagon.


Hm, actually, it is also the crap flakwagon =]

What I mean here, is that if a flakwagon could pose any kind of threat, then there might not be need to have a huge pile of them to give some kind of air defense...

Anyway, I was the one who originally proposed the 0-1 limit of the flakwagons for the blitz brigade, and I can still live with that (just have to paint more and have a reserve of unused tanks then...).
I just feel that if we both up the cost of the oddboy AND limit the flakwagons, Orks should get something in return - as both changes affect almost every ork army I have seen.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Markconz
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:30 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

(Nicodemus @ Oct. 26 2007,09:35)
QUOTE
Well, yeah. Gunwagonz suck, fix that! :)

It's not that I don't have some sympathy for this position, but:

1. I would like to test it more. Ie an almost speed freak like Ghazkulls ork army without oddboyz (lots of gunwagons etc). But, and here's the kicker - perhaps it is really just like trying to do a marine tank army - it doesn't work (hence why I'm interested in Hena's Scions list for that idea). Ie, gunwagonz are a useful unit in a balanced ork army and pointed appropriately, but just taking screedloads of them doesn't work. However, to counter that idea, maybe taking screedloads of gunwagonz should have something more to recommend it...

2. The maths hasn't worked out on ideas I have had for giving gunwagonz a bit of a boost :(  I was kinda hoping someone else would come up with a brilliant idea...  :;):

_________________
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
nealhunt
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:12 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

(Markconz @ Oct. 26 2007,12:30)
QUOTE
...an almost speed freak like Ghazkulls ork army without oddboyz (lots of gunwagons etc). But, and here's the kicker - perhaps it is really just like trying to do a marine tank army - it doesn't work (hence why I'm interested in Hena's Scions list for that idea). Ie, gunwagonz are a useful unit in a balanced ork army and pointed appropriately, but just taking screedloads of them doesn't work.

I'll go on record as saying that has been the overwhelming case in my games.

They are useful in a broad army because they are fast, can do a little bit of damage/BMs, and as long as they are kept out of high threat areas they are reasonably durable.  They're a support unit that does a good job of threatening objectives later in the game because it's hard for the enemy to divert the attention to dispose of them.

That doesn't really work with large numbers.

_________________
Neal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
nealhunt
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:55 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

(Nicodemus @ Oct. 26 2007,07:30)
QUOTE
I dont want to sound like a broken record, but you havent tell me how to score hits with AP/AT6+ or survive assault without save with small and almost immobile formation.

I haven't told you how to hit with 6+ because your assertion is not accurate.  There's no reason to expect to have to roll only on 6+ to-hit.

A 3+ initiative is nowhere close to an automatic failure.  I don't know why people perceive this is such a horrible thing.  It is a noticeable difference.  You have to take it into account.  It is not a crushing restriction meaning "The Orks can't do anything but Double and Engage!"

What it means in practice is that you don't take an action unless you have a Hold action that you are comfortable with.  For Sustained Fire, you can fire at the same target on Hold so an alternate is always available.  For Advance you probably don't want to risk it unless you have an alternate target in firing range from your current position.

There is also a mitigating factor for Sustain Fire.  In general (not specifically the Big Gunz), Sustain Fire benefits Ork troops a lot more than other forces.  The +1 to-hit applies to each shot.  Orks have large numbers of shots at low to-hit values.  The proportional increase from Sustain Fire is greater than for forces with fewer, high quality shots.

What Orks really have is +2 to Engage or Double activations and a hidden benefit for Sustain Fire that helps offset the lower chance to activate (not entirely, obviously, but it helps).  Only Advance moves are severely limited.  Orks shouldn't have any hesitation about Sustain Fire.

Finally, every single Ork army gets a free Supreme Commander.  You get a reroll every turn that most armies have to pay for.  If all your other, non-shooty formations are primarily using Double and Engage, that leaves the reroll for shooting.

===

Back to Big Gunz specifically, they do just fine with attempting Sustain Fire actions.  They also do well with Overwatch, especially with the free OW for garrisoning.  To crunch some numbers for example purposes (Uge Gunzmob v IG infantry w/ fire support):

15 Big Gunz firing on Sustain - 7.5 hits
14 Big Gunz firing on Hold -  4.67 hits
Weighted average (1/3 chance to fail) - 6.56 hits

IG company w/ Fire support firing AP on Sustain - 8.5 hits
AP on Hold - 5.3
Weighted average AP hits - 7.97 hits

v AT Sustain - 5.67
v AT on Hold - 2.67
Weighted average AT hits - 5.17

Clearly, Ork Big Gunz shoot just as well as IG infantry with fire support even with the lower initiative on Sustain.  There may be an initiative modifier for BMs or Retain, but in that case the Orks come out even better.  Going from a 3+ to 4+ activation affects their weighted average a lot less than the IG going from 2+ to 3+.  Similarly, having a Supreme Commander reroll improves the Gunz weighted average more than IG.

===

"almost immobile" is also an exaggeration.  They don't have the move to make a redeployment once the game starts, but they can maneuver in a significant way.  Placement is much more critical but proper deployment will give them tactical options.

GT terrain is 2 15-30cm terrain pieces per 60cm square.  That means that in most cases the terrain should be 20-30cm apart.  Between the ability to garrison and GT terrain placement, there should be a terrain "alley" on virtually every board that will allow them to hop from cover to cover with a 20cm move.  In fact, I frequently find I can identify a path through terrain that allows you to make a choice of 2 different directions at some point.

Their slow move limits the strategic options far more than it limits tactical options once the game starts.  Big Gunz should be placed based on your general strategy in a place where their slow speed is mitigated.

Pincer:  center
Hammer and Anvil: in the hammer
Refused Flank:  center, possibly strong side

There are a few other specific uses as well that could fit within those broader strategies.  Park them on objectives or position them to grab a close one (1-2 moves).  If you're playing the OGBM list, you can pair them with a Snappa Mob and use the vehicles for cover (Big gunz + Big Snappa Mob = 475 points for 2 formations).

===

Is all that great?  No.  Big Gunz are limited.  In many ways they are a niche unit as rpr mentioned.

The general problem with niche unit is that all units have to have abilities and points that are balanced in their optimum use.  If you improve a unit so it becomes generally useful, then when you go back to the niche in which it excels, the unit is overly powerful.

In this case, it might not be a true case of the unit being  unbalanced if allowed outside its niche.  To my persepctive, it's as much about the flavor of the Ork army.  Orks aren't supposed to have "park and fire" units as a core function of the army so their flexibility is limited.  If you improve Big Gunz to the point they are useful in broad application the army might still be balanced overall, but the Gunz definitely will be broadly used.  The army's just not supposed to be about that kind of play.

_________________
Neal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Ginger
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:18 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
Guys, I wonder if we are actually looking at a different issue here altogether; Playing style and more significantly, table-top terrain layout.

I know Sotec got to the point that he virtually ignored playtests (and possibly most people's comments) purely because he discovered that these two aspects varied so greatly that it had a material effect upon the gamres.

Neal's comments about hopping from one terrain piece to the next also suggests several woods or built up areas to hide in, and also restricted LOS and ranged fire. All of these factors will mitigate the weakness of many units, leaving more to get "stuck in" at the appropriate point

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Nicodemus
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:39 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:27 pm
Posts: 451
Location: Finland
That was definedly educating. :)

I have always thought that OW big gunz are good at first turn, they can be good in other turns too if enemy for some reason leaves them alone (what they seldom do because it takes so little to criple these guys, many players have some 150-200 point cheap formation who has nothing else to attack than other leetle formations).

But as I said, they cant hit anybody with AP/AT6, and that is what you have to use if you "play aggressively, double and then assault". And as I said, they have to leave their cover when they assault (ofcourse your enemy could park her formation so close that big guns dont  even have to move, but that aint gonna happen). So that tactic is not a tactic for me.

So using big guns is either OW/firesupport formation or popcorn annoyance.

If you have lots of garrisoning units there is no problem, but if you have only big guns and some other there comes the problem of "Esiinty?ntyv? naula saa ensimm?isen iskun" (Proverb, "nail that comes out of line gets the first hit" (I am bad at translating proverbs..)) and Big gunz are very fragile. So if your mainarmy is not in garrison, enemy can shoot big gunz to smihereens from the comfort of her own deployment zone, she can even use units that normaly have to spend first turn either doubling or marching. So you can use big gunz OW/support (when garrisoning them) only when most of your army is garrisonable.

So big gunz have _very_ limited use. I used to use big warbands with 2 zzzapbig gun and garrison them. They were so hard that they could take that hitting from enemy and nobody could just "drive throught" 2 zzzaps. But after blastmarker their range dropped so they were not any "game winning formation", but they vere good. But they definedly were not  worth 550 points they vere quite expensive at 500 points already.

If armys price rises for 50 point, 100 point or 200 points it is not just "drop one fightabomma", it means "drop one activation". I dont have any unnecessary upgrades in any of my formations (well, sometimes) so there is not "loose points". So this change does not just criple airdefence, make gunwagons worthless (big gunz too), make zzzapwarband overexpensive, force people to take more fightabommas (want to play against my wifes 12 fightabommas and two landas with just 0-1 ground flak or against airheavy eld?uhrs or shoot down  thunderhawk ?)  but it also drops one activation from every one of old armylists. It is not "just two minor changes", it is massive change to whole list.

_________________
Eradication of Earth's
Population loves Polaris
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
nealhunt
 Post subject: Big Gunz
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:26 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
If you have lots of garrisoning units there is no problem, but if you have only big guns and some other there comes the problem of "Esiinty?ntyv? naula saa ensimm?isen iskun" (Proverb, "nail that comes out of line gets the first hit" (I am bad at translating proverbs..)) and Big gunz are very fragile. So if your mainarmy is not in garrison, enemy can shoot big gunz to smihereens from the comfort of her own deployment zone, she can even use units that normaly have to spend first turn either doubling or marching. So you can use big gunz OW/support (when garrisoning them) only when most of your army is garrisonable.


That's a good point (and I like the proverb).  Garrisons are a tricky business, even with OW.  If you are not garrisoning a large force, you are splitting your army in a way that risks overextending.


A formation in a 30cm transport and 45cm range can theoretically strike out to ~90cm distance on a single move.

I like to think of Gunz garrisons as bait.  Put them far enough forward that the enemy is tempted to come after them, but far enough back that they must risk over-extending to attack the garrison, especially if you can force a double move.

That means I usually garrison fairly close in.  If the Gunz can position so they have good fields of fire while eliminating flanking approaches, that 90cm attack distance is limited to troops that are willing to expose themselves to the Gunz OW attacks, or those that are willing to double move to bypass the flanking terrain.  The former has the obvious advantage of the Gunz shooting first and the latter means -2 to-hit modifiers.

One particularly useful way to do that is to garrison in front of where you think you will want to place your Gargant.  Generally, that's not too hard.  Both are slow, so you frequently want to start them near the middle to give the best options for reaction.  Any formation that comes after the Gunz is exposed to Turn 1 fire from the Gargant because of its longer range.

You can garrison Gunz without the main force of your army, but your distance is limited.  You should be no more than 15-30cm from your deployment zone, preferably near the lower end unless you know the enemy is relatively slow.

If armys price rises for 50 point, 100 point or 200 points it is not just "drop one fightabomma", it means "drop one activation".

I'm not sure I follow this.  There are always ways to rearrange an army list.

_________________
Neal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 2 of 3
  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net