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Oddboyz and ork mobs
Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:45 pm 
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(rpr @ Oct. 12 2007,11:15)
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When I check out my Ork army I used in a tournament last Summer, these changes mainly have changed it from 3000 point army to 3150 army, plus 4 formations have been made "illegal" (which is mainly cosmetic in this case, too many flakwagons...)

I am suffering from this as well, however, I have also been quite successful over the past few years with all my Ork armies.

I thing to think able with the slight down grading of the Orks, IG and Eldar is that this is helping to bring SMs back into some more parity with out having to up lift them too much.

Try out the changes and see how they do.

Tim

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:14 pm 
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General changes:  The vast majority of the Ork changes have been out there for literally years.  It's been a consistent set of changes discussed, with just a couple more recent additions as hidden issues have been brought to light.  Oddboy changes have been discussed for over a year, including a price change for Zzaps.  Same for Flakwagons.  Out of all the changes in the Ork list, the only ones that haven't been in semi-fixed form and inviting comment for a long time are the Soopagun price change (as opposed to just Zzaps) and the number limitation on Flakwagons.

As an example, here's a thread from right about a year ago.  That discusses the more "recent" changes regarding oddboyz and  revisists the long standing issues around supastompas.  As another, here's a thread from the old boards going back to early 2005 that discusses potential Big Gun, Stompa and Supastompa changes.

Oddboyz:  I've done mathematical breakdowns of what the Oddboyz add in terms of firepower several times, taking into account all manner of variations of actual in-game situations.  A Zzap gun easily doubles the effective firepower of a Gunzmob and more than doubles the firepower of a Blitz Brigade.  They are easily worth 75 points in that respect.

They've been playtested in popcorn lists built to take advantage of the theory that they are too cheap by maximizing the number taken (and therefore the effective point discrepancy).  They were shown to be crushingly good, confirming the thesis that they are too cheap.

===

rpr:  Players definitely weren't taking the problem forces when the army list was balanced during development because the combos simply hadn't been discovered or invented yet.  Basically, as strategies and tactics have evolved, the relative value of the units has changed.

The other core armies have gotten their own mix of changes that reflect the evolution of tactics with those armies as well.  Everyone's "always take" combos are being downgraded, either by points or abilities.  The price of the ubiquitous Thawk/Warhound SM army is going up even though other SM army compositions are cheaper.  Eldar Revenants lost a lot of firepower, and so on.

As far as internal offsets for the Ork downgrades, the boost to MWBP weapons is quite important.  Also, the point discount for Stompas should result in a previously underpowered and unused option being a viable formation, hopefully opening up a whole line of entirely new army compositions.

I'm happy to discuss specific units (Big Gunz, Gunwagons, whatever) if you want to start dedicated threads.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:45 pm 
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(rpr @ Oct. 12 2007,12:37)
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But if the Orks has been considered as one of the most balanced armies, if it is nerfed then how would this NOT affect the overall balance situation? If there is general long time observation that "Orks seem to be a bit better than other armies", then one-way downgrading them makes sense - as this is the sum effect of downgrading certain popular units.

My thoughts exatly.

I am quite angry about this whole "lets nerf orks!"-thing. Actualy so angry that I desided to start playing Apocalypse.

When I started Epic Armageddon I was told that IG and Orks are the most balanced armyes there are. What happened to that?

I do think that Supa Stompa is underprized but all the rest of changes are actualy so bad (well, bad to orks at least) that I refuse to use them (attention Hena, no tournament for me where these changes are used (at least with orks)).

P.S. I used to use Big Warband w/ 2 Oddbiggun. It was good footslogging formation. But not so great that I would pay 550 for it, 500 was already on top limits.

P.P.S: Orks were my first Epic army and therefore have special place in my heart. When other armies got kicked in the tooth in forums I could think "Ok, I still have my orks", but no more. My wife who had allways attended tournaments with orks was quite shocked to see what would happen to her tournament lists.

So orks get me quite emotional. :(




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Chroma
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:14 pm 
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(Nicodemus @ Oct. 13 2007,18:45)
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I am quite angry about this whole "lets nerf orks!"-thing. Actualy so angry that I desided to start playing Apocalypse.

Two changes... essentially *two* changes have you this worked up? ?That blows my mind. ?

This is the much wanted army review: Orks *are* one of the most balanced armies out there, but there were still a few potential problems, why wouldn't they be addressed?

The increase for Oddboyz is *obviously* necessary, MWBP weapons have *greatly* increased in power now, why should they still cost the same? ?And one almost always sees maxed out Oddboyz... that usually means a problem if it's always a "no-brainer" choice.

Drop a single Fighta-Bommer from your army (or anything else that costs 50 points) and you've got, basically, the same army as before.

And you agree with the undercosting of the Supa-Stompa... and now you can get Big and 'Uge mobs of regular Stompas... with more Supas! ?What's to complain about?

The Flakwagon thing looks like it was as response to mere talk and not an actual "in play" problem, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was dropped.

I think that's all that's been changed, so, to call that a "nerf" of Orks is *really* overstating the case. ?You want a "nerf"? ?Go look at Eldar... and, yes, they *needed* that.

Sorry, *anger* about an army review just really touched a nerve with me and Orks are one of my favourite armies as well.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:34 pm 
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(Hena @ Oct. 13 2007,21:08)
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Chroma, it's a nerf when things are downgraded and nothing is upgraded. And if I remember Tiinas list, there was 8 oddboyz, so the cost of the list is up 200 points. That's +6.67% change in cost. And you say that that isn't a downgrade.

It's *one* change, on a unit that, as the 3+TK(d3) has often been thought of as "a little much for Orks" and is now more powerful than before as a BP weapon with the MW barrage changes... to me, a 25 point increase on the unit sounds appropriate.  That hardly seems like an army breaking "nerf" to me... they are still very effective... "nerf", to me means "not worth taking anymore".

So, 8 Oddboyz... that is a *heck* of a lot, and, apparently, a "no-brainer"... it speaks of a problem to me that dropping 2-3 of them renders the army so ineffective that the player is ready to *quit* EPIC over it!. ?

*Eight* 3+ TK (d3) weapons for 400 points... even *Chaos* can't do that *laugh* Certainly there's the cost of the base formations, but that's still a lot of power for not a lot of points.

I would actually really support the Oddboyz being +50 points in Warbands, and +75 points in Gunzmobz and Blitz Brigades, as they are a more optimal choice in the later two formations.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:41 am 
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(Nicodemus @ Oct. 13 2007,17:45)
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I am quite angry about this whole "lets nerf orks!"-thing. Actualy so angry that I desided to start playing Apocalypse.

and from Hena...

The sentiment is strong. I still haven't touched my Tyranids after 8.4 and I'm not sure I will. Since that was my main army it almost caused me to stop playing epic.


Like Chroma, I think that if you guys are that emotive and willing to quit epic over a couple of changes I don't see that much can be done :(.
Thing is, the responses I've received publicly and privately from all over the world, have overwhelmingly expressed thanks at concrete productive output of usable documents (as opposed to endless circular debate and opinion), and at the general direction of changes, and a willingness to accept whatever international consensus is arrived at in the final call by Neal. The general trend of the changes is agreed with, and while disagreement over individual changes is expressed I have never seen this to the extent that people say they wish to quit.

Furthermore if it is just a couple of things you don't like, then why not simply house rule them in your own group? Just say "in our group we will leave oddboyz at 50 points, and we will use Hena's tyranid list", and Hena as tournament organiser can specify this in his tournament pack (much as you guys have already been doing with lists of changes to be used).  I think my NZ group may decide the same thing on one rule too (intermingling), and though I will try to dissuade them from doing so, it's not a big deal. Not enough to quit over I would think, especially given such an easy solution.

Also for what it's worth Nicodemus, Orks are my favourite army too... but I do think the very few changes made to this list are very appropriate and necessary, and they have not been made lightly. There are not many:  
-Oddboyz and Supastompas cost up.
-Flaks decreased discount in mob purchase
-Stompas increased discount in mob purchase
-Oddboy Soopa weapon power up.

That's it, and it must be considered in combination with other changes in overall effect:
-Other lists are largely downgraded (esp swordwind), with a few upgrades in places.
-Some Marine formations are upgraded and a couple downgraded.
-Chaos are untouched until next round.


I would actually really support the Oddboyz being +50 points in Warbands, and +75 points in Gunzmobz and Blitz Brigades, as they are a more optimal choice in the later two formations.

However, how many Big Guns mobs have you seen in tournament lists? Usually everything is full of blitzes as they are generally better. On that basis, I'm not sure that big guns needs to downgraded.

To me this argument might have some merit, but from my play experience big gunz can be quite effective, and from discussion I've noted that popcorn versions (5 guns incl zzap) have been seen as abusive (though exp garrison rules had something to do with this also).

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:02 pm 
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(Chroma @ Oct. 13 2007,19:14)
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1) Two changes... essentially *two* changes have you this worked up? ?That blows my mind. ?

2) The increase for Oddboyz is *obviously* necessary, MWBP weapons have *greatly* increased in power now, why should they still cost the same? ?And one almost always sees maxed out Oddboyz... that usually means a problem if it's always a "no-brainer" choice.

3) Drop a single Fighta-Bommer from your army (or anything else that costs 50 points) and you've got, basically, the same army as before.

4) And you agree with the undercosting of the Supa-Stompa... and now you can get Big and 'Uge mobs of regular Stompas... with more Supas! ?What's to complain about?

5)I think that's all that's been changed, so, to call that a "nerf" of Orks is *really* overstating the case. ?You want a "nerf"? ?Go look at Eldar... and, yes, they *needed* that.

1) Two essential changes whitch made EVERY ONE of my ork army either too expensive or illegal.

2) Reason everyone takes oddboyz is that without them orks cant shoot anything. They just dont have anything else what can shoot. Give me options to make Bad Moon army (which should be shooty) without oddboyz.

3) Cant, because other of the Two Essential Changes made orks ground flak non-existant. I have to take _more_ fightabommas to maintain aircover. One flak is not airdefence, two flaks are not airdefence. You need atleast four of them to talk about airdefence, now that would cost 255 points compared to old 150 points (HUGE point rise). So I cant take Gargants either, I need those points for Fightabommas and Landas. I liked Gargants and after these changes I cant take them. Before I could even play without aircraft, take 2 Blitzbrigade with reasonable aircover and even take Great Gargant to play. Not anymore. So I do feel thoughout nerfed.

4) Well, that is a good thing.

5) Yes, Eldars had their teeths kicked in too. When that happened I thought "Well, at least I still have my orks!".



I did not like those 4 strong blitzes with oddboy before, but now I should start using them. Because ork flak has been nerfed to just blasmarker placer it is better to have two independent flakwagons than two in same formation.

So in my opinion these are the new ork changes:

1) No Gargants
2) LOTS of fightabommas
3) Blitzbrigades with 1 flak and 1 Oddzzap and not Big Blitzbrigades
4) No footslogging warbands
5) LOTS of Landas (see point 4)

(and few good changes
6) pricerise for SupaStumpa
7) Stompamob)

P.S: I did not say I would quit Epic, I just said that I started playing Apocalypse. So less epic for me, no "no epic for me".

P.P.S: I think it is bad thing that every tournament and country has different rulesets, but it kinda starts to seem better and better idea.




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Markconz
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:25 pm 
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(Nicodemus @ Oct. 14 2007,11:02)
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1) No Gargants

This is getting ridiculous. Gargants have had their weapons significantly upgraded (so much so that it might even prove problematic, and perhaps another good reason to support the flak restriction), and are one of the most naturally resistant units to air attack in the entire game in any case.  

Furthermore no other army has as flexible ground flak options as orks, even after the proposed changes. Most other armies are limited to a single flak unit per formation or very vulnerable 3 strong flak units. Orks can still take as many flaks as they want in numerous formation types, often with very small minimum formation sizes of nonflak units, and considerable ability to minmax. If anything the original restriction proposal should be returned to.


Sorry but this really is in the realm of isolated emotive catastrophising.  I doubt very much that the rest of your group shares your view here.

Honestly if this is the quality of the objections, there is nothing to worry about in terms of the rules being widely accepted.

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Soren
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:37 pm 
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God this makes me headache. Kay keep the list as it is, upcost the Supa Stompa and most of us will be happy. (You will never get all of them happy)

The rest is pretty good, no need to change to other entries.

Yes, Oddboys are good, but they are intended to be so. Nobody is forced to take them if he thinks they are too good. If my underrated Marines can deal with 8 in 3k, everybody can deal with them.

Come down from the "In my gaming group all play oddboys, they MUST be cheesy and therefore downgraded" thing. Think in bigger terms.


But as always only my 0,002 cents.

An angry Soren




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Warphead
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:24 am 
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Maybe up the cost of the Supa Stompa and limit Flak wagonz a little bit more. But that is it. No more changes needed.
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Chroma
 Post subject: Oddboyz and ork mobs
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:47 am 
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(Soren @ Oct. 14 2007,22:37)
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Come down from the "In my gaming group all play oddboys, they MUST be cheesy and therefore downgraded" thing. Think in bigger terms.

I think one of the "bigger terms" is that, with the current proposed rule changes, MW barrages become a lot more powerful vs AVs, so units that project such attacks probably need to be examined for possible point changes.

In my Ork army, I rarely use the Supa-Zzap (TK) option and almost always go with the Soopagun option (this is *before* the MW barrage changes)... yet most other Ork players seem to prefer the TK option.   Now, with MW barrages even stronger, that option is even better for me... for the same cost as before!

My usual Ork (Bad Moonz!) army would have two each of the following formations:

Big Blitz Brigade
2 Flakwagonz
6 Gunwagons
2 Oddboyz (Soopagunz)

Big Mekboy Gunzmob
10 Big Gunz
2 Oddboyz (Soopagunz)
1 Nob

At original point values, they're 350 and 360 points respectively.  

At "new" values, they're 400 and 410... and, to me, still worth it, but this forces a "hard choice" about what else to include, and whether to include "doubles" of each formation or not... and *that* is a good thing.  

Taking Oddboyz at 50 points a pop is *never* a hard choice, I would always max out if I could!  To me, that could indicate a problem and it should be examined.  

Why so much resistance to that?  It's a *proposal*, for *testing*, not something set in stone.

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