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Ork Flakwagons
Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:23 pm 
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We could go right out of the box and remove Flakwagons as a unit and make them gunwagons, but give all gunwagons 30cm AA6+. This would heavy reduce the number of shooting attacks a Blitz Brigade could have and we would have lots of gunwagons.....

I still think that Flakwagons are not a problem, nor are the numbers that are played.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:21 pm 
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I am strongly against dropping Flakwagons from blitzbrigade choise (option #3).

If you drop flakwagons from blitzbrigade choice you could as well say that orks dont have any land FlaK.

Orks need at least 3 to get even 1 hit to enemy aircraft, and if you cant field many of them it is same to field only 1 of them (to give BM) and take even more Fightabommas to take care of enemy fighters.

If you think people field too few gunwagonz, make them better/cheaper. Armour to 4? AP to 4+? Or 2 at the price of one? 2 Ap5/AT5 shots? I think the main problem is that gunwagon is crap, period.

Blitzbrigades with lot of Flakwagons is only way Orks will ever actually shoot anything out of sky.

I took my old ork armylists and checked what would happen if blitzbrigades could not choose flaks. Every list would lose 1 activation and airdefence would be completely in fightabommas shoulder and those few flakwagons would only serve as BM placers.

Sorry if I sound blund or rude, but my english does not alloy me to be suave.  :confuse:

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Chroma
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:43 pm 
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(Nicodemus @ Sep. 11 2007,17:21)
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Blitzbrigades with lot of Flakwagons is only way Orks will ever actually shoot anything out of sky.

You can still have lots of Flakwagonz in your Blitz Brigades with option #3, you just have to pay for them, instead of getting them at the "Big"/"'Uge" discount.

Currently:

Big Blitz Brigade
4 Deth Koptas
4 Flakwagonz

250 points

Under Option #3

Normal Blitz Bridage
4 Deth Koptas
4 additional Flakwagons

290 points

So you've got to shave off 40 points some place to get the same level of flak.

The idea of a bunch of 4-Flakwagon "Normal" Blitz Brigades zipping around just to create a "wall of flak" doesn't see sporting *or* Orky to me. ?*laugh*

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Chroma
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:55 pm 
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(Hena @ Sep. 11 2007,18:43)
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Chroma, it's not the same. You cannot take 2 oddboyz in those formations.

*laugh*  See, I think that's a *good* thing.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:06 pm 
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Ah, so you dont want 2 flaks, 1 gunwagon and 1 zzzpawagon for 200 points? Yeah, I dont like them either. Why not just add little sidenote to forbit those? Or Blitz Brigade have to include 4 gunwagonz or deathkoptas (so 150 points for 4 gunwagon/dethkopta, 250 points for 4 gunwagon/dethkopta + 4 gunwagon/flakwagon/deathkopta and 350 points for 4 gunwagon/dethkopta + 8 gunwagon/flakwagon/deathkopta). But I still feel that flakwagon is not the problem, gunwagon is (it is crap :))

But I do like my Big Blitz with 2 odd and 4 flaks for 350, and I dont see them as non-orky or non-sporty. They give decent aircover, pack a good punch and is big enough to withstand little attention (but only little). But 385 points for same punch and only ability to give 1 BM to airplanes and lot of crappy gunwagons - no thanks. I think that I would drop Blitzbrigades totally then, I would field supastompas instead and put my zzzzaps to infantry, so I would actualy field less gunwagons than before!

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Chroma
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:17 pm 
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(Hena @ Sep. 11 2007,18:57)
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But have you considered exactly how much that downgrades the list? Orks are quite nicely balanced. I fear that this change would damage that too much.

Well, I've usually played my Orks with a *very* low Flakwagon count... I like the Big Blitz Brigade for zipping around and shooting at things 45cm and such, and it hasn't been a problem... except when facing hordes of Vultures... *laugh*

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:18 pm 
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I don't think Gunwagonz are a problem.  Compared point-to-point against any other AV with similar role (general, mid-range fire support) they hold up just fine, mostly because they are so much cheaper than comparable units in other armies.

There are two issues that cause them to be unattractive.  Both are based on force org and have almost nothing to do with the inherent ability of the Gunwagon:

1)  Very few units in the Ork army list have 45cm range or longer.  that means that pairing gunwagons with most other Ork units results in a mismatch of range.  The Gunwagons can't use their extra range efficiently when paired up, so the ability is lost.

2)  The "Zzap Brigade" configuration means that the overwhelming majority of firepower for the BB rests in a single unit.  The rest of the formation becomes basically a meat shield.  So, again, the advantage of Gunwagon range is dramatically reduced, basically to the sole role of soaking BMs.  And, since the formation's loss of firepower is minimal no matter what the non-Zzap units are, you might as well take the Flakwagons.

The difference in effectiveness of the Gunwagon v Flakwagon is marginal.  The force org simply amplifies it.

As a counter-example, one of my favorite formations in the Speed Freek list is the Blitz Brigade with 1 Flak, 3 Gun, 1 Speedsta (or multiples of that arrangement for Big/Uge).  All of the units except the Flakwagon are 45cm range.  It's still modest firepower, but its consistent range allows it to take advantage of that range.  I wouldn't trade more Gunwagons for Flakwagons in that arrangement because it would downgrade performance.  In fact, I have been known to go the other way and drop Flakwagons, e.g. a Uge BB with only 1-2 Flakwagons.

====

I had considered the same idea rpr presented above as well - restricting the Flakwagons to 0-1 of the core choices.  I thought it was sort of fiddly so I didn't bring it up, but it does compromise between options 1 and 3.  Something like:

Any 4 of the following units: Gunwagons, Deth Koptas, 0-1 Flakwagons

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:18 pm 
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0-1 Flakwagons


Flakwagon, singular, surely?

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Dave
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:40 pm 
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I think because the 0 is in there Flakwagons (with the s) works.

Whatever the case, if every other army has limited AA unit selection it might be good to implement it with the Orks as well.

And E&C, don't call me Shirley.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:24 pm 
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Gramatically, in this circumstance the singular form of 'Flakwagon' is correct.

And E&C, don't call me Shirley.


Roger!




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Charad
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:09 pm 
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Similar discussion with eldar firestorms was while ago. Then people were having serious issues with firestorms being "too" good and now they are sheltering their baby orks. :D

Personally (and from the feeling side) I don't prefer force organisation changes, because that seriously hurts peoples armies. (okay, having core flak ain't good either)
So if all would be just from me, I would drop that 2x from flakwagons stats, and let people use them as much as they like!

For gamingwise still I would support option 3 as best universal solution to limit flakwagon numbers a bit.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:10 pm 
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It seems that leaving them as-is or moving them solely to the extras are the dominant views.  The 0-1 as core choice would obviously be a compromise between those two views.  I'm sort of inclined to leave them as-is based on the idea that it's an even split and we are nominally supposed to try to keep the changes minimal.

Tim:  Since this affects the Freeks as well, what do you think about as-is versus a 0-1 compromise?

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Markconz
 Post subject: Ork Flakwagons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:49 pm 
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0-1 at the very least.

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