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Supazzap Guns

rpr

Post subject: Supazzap Guns

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:12 am

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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:32 pm
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If had to choose either I would go for MW4+. For gargants then see about the price - normal gargant seem a bit overpriced already... (great gargant or supa stompa are so much better choices)

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yme-loc

Post subject: Supazzap Guns

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:12 am

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Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:58 pm
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People keep telling me these things are overpowered - but mine cant seem to hit the backside of a barn door - I think I once took the shields off a warhound with one, might have killed a swooping hawk as well.

Pretty much been swapping mine out for soopa guns, just like rolling lots of dice I guess.

But if others are finding these a problem the MW4+ does seem the best idea.

Also the great gargant has a lifta droppa not a supa zzap so it can be left with MW3+ gives a slight boost between its guns and the gargants guns which seems fair - there never seemed much reason to take anything other than the 8 MW Barrage on the great gargant before.

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Chroma

Post subject: Supazzap Guns

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:22 pm

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(yme-loc @ Sep. 06 2007,10:12)

QUOTE

Pretty much been swapping mine out for soopa guns, just like rolling lots of dice I guess.

I'm in the same position, yme-loc, I just prefer to hit a lot of targets, rather than plink one or two at a time... *laugh*

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TheLimey

Post subject: Supazzap Guns

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:07 pm

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I'm in the same position, yme-loc, I just prefer to hit a lot of targets, rather than plink one or two at a time... *laugh*

That's funny, as i've not built any superzzaps either, just soopaguns.

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BlackLegion

Post subject: Supazzap Guns

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:23 pm

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Yep. I prefere Soopagunz too.

Allways handy to treat large chunks of an enemy formation with MW barrages.

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Steve54

Post subject: Supazzap Guns

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:02 pm

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Aren't the new MW barrage rules going to solve the problem of zzaps being a 'no-brainer' then soopas will be the 'no-brainer' option.

A do pity the marine list with the new rules plans - reduced ability of aircraft to grab objectives, no overpowered barrages and better inteceptors against them.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Supazzap Guns

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:04 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA

(Chroma @ Sep. 06 2007,12:22)

QUOTE

(yme-loc @ Sep. 06 2007,10:12)

QUOTE

Pretty much been swapping mine out for soopa guns, just like rolling lots of dice I guess.

I'm in the same position, yme-loc, I just prefer to hit a lot of targets, rather than plink one or two at a time... *laugh*

That's actually something of a concern with the idea of decreasing the to-hit.

Right now I'd put soopaguns as a bit better for general use when you have 2 in a formation, and zzap guns better by themselves or with 3 in a formation. The difference is where on the barrage table the soopaguns fall and the fact that a 3+ to hit is less adversely affected by to-hit mods (all those Waagh! double-move penalties) than 4/5+.

However, at MW4+, the zzap gun just loses out almost completely. It no longer has the advantage against hard-to-hit units. Even against the preferred target of Zzap guns, war engines, the increase of barrage to-hit rolls at higher DCs negates a lot of the advantages of multi-TK.

So, what you end up with is a flip in general purpose use - Soopaguns become superior in nearly every situation, with Zzap guns only being more useful against low-DC/high armor targets. That seems awfully highly specialized...

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Chroma

Post subject: Supazzap Guns

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:40 pm

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(nealhunt @ Sep. 07 2007,19:04)

QUOTE

So, what you end up with is a flip in general purpose use - Soopaguns become superior in nearly every situation, with Zzap guns only being more useful against low-DC/high armor targets. ?That seems awfully highly specialized...

I've always considered the Supazzap to be awfully specialized to begin with, that's why I rarely took it. It's still doing d3 unsavable points of damage to war engines, that's not too shabby.

Here's a suggestion I don't think I've seen floated:

SupaZzap Gun 45cm, MW3+, TK(d3)

Good old range reduction... still packs a punch, but it can't just reach out and punch things anymore.

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Markconz

Post subject: Supazzap Guns

Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:48 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
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Location: New Zealand

(nealhunt @ Sep. 07 2007,18:04)

QUOTE

However, at MW4+, the zzap gun just loses out almost completely. It no longer has the advantage against hard-to-hit units. Even against the preferred target of Zzap guns, war engines, the increase of barrage to-hit rolls at higher DCs negates a lot of the advantages of multi-TK.

Neal yes it's bit of a problem, but is it enough of a problem? We've been using both the MW AP rule and the MW4+ Zzap. Zzap still do have a niche, though perhaps not as dominant as before.

For example on a move action (and drops things by a third for doubles).
-Zzap gun average of 1 DC to a War Engine or 0.5 tanks killed (irrespective of target type).
-Soopas (assuming 2 but looking at the effect from just one of them), an average of 0.75 DC to a 6DC RA WE (average size), and 0.5 DC to very common targets like individual SHT (eg shadowswords, scorpions, or smaller war engines like warhounds). It requires 2 RA tanks under template to equal a zzap gun, and Soopa guns are better with more or non-RA targets.

In pratice the Zzap has a lot more power in some very common and important situations (like those single annoying SHT).

The first point is that Zzaps need a decrease, and MW4+ seems to work well, and is a lot more orky than 3+.

The second point is that they should be balanced against he newly improved Soopa guns. If the MW AP change is becoming official should Soopa guns get a decrease in range or something? I'd say possibly, but maybe lets wait and see.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Supazzap Guns

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:19 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA

I've mulled this over repeatedly. I can't justify changing Zzaps to 4+ to-hit.

There would simply be no internal balance between Soopagunz and Supazzaps. Zzaps may be a bit better in most situations as they stand, but Soopas still outperform them in certain combos/sitautions. For example, a Big formation with 2 Soopas is going to be better than 2 Zzaps against most formations (basically, anything non-RA/non-WE).

I can't think of a single "blind" situation where I would buy 4+ Zzaps over Soopas. Soopas lose out only slightly against WEs and are vastly better against every other target. Short of knowing for a fact that I was facing an IG SHT army or AMTL, I don't feel like I could ever justify Zzaps.

The major concern has been the amount to which Oddboyz increase the firepower of an Ork formation, and the way in which that can be exploited in a popcorn style army. In considering this, I think that a "Soopa" Brigade with a 5+MW template would be almost as bad as a "Zzap" Brigade.

Assuming a non-RA armor save and -1 for double moving, a Soopa would only need 3 units under the template to average the same kills as a Zzap. That's nearly automatic. With a -2 for double/cover, it only needs to be 4 units to match effectiveness, which is also pretty easy most times. 5+ RA adds half again to that amount (4.5 and 6 units, respectively), which is possible if unlikely. 4+RA doubles it (6/8 units), making it almost impossible. The discrepancy drops with better modifiers for Advance/Hold or Sustain. Break even points are:

-2 net mod - 4 units under template
-1 net mod - 3 units under template
0 net mod - 2 units under template
+1 net mod - 1.33 units under template

x1.5 for 5+RA
x2 for 4+RA
x2 for WE target

Obviously, Zzaps are better against WEs and heavier targets but against lighter targets, the Soopas are actually going to be best.

Considering a relatively normal army composition with a large number of non-RA/non-WE units, plus the fact that popcorn armies can overwhelm WEs through placement of BMs even without actually inflicting a lot of damage, I think the Soopas would be just about as abusive as the Zzaps in this application.

To sum up:

Soopas do have a niche as the Oddboyz are now and, imho, it's a considerably large niche than Zzaps would have with a to-hit change. I still think there is a discrepancy but I think I can live with it.

Soopas seem to be useful for creating similar kinds of abusive lists as Zzaps are. That should be addressed as well as, obviously, simply changing Zzaps won't help.

===

I'm thinking leave the stats alone. Make all Oddboyz 75 points.

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Chroma

Post subject: Supazzap Guns

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:35 pm

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
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Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(nealhunt @ Sep. 21 2007,15:19)

QUOTE

I'm thinking leave the stats alone. ? Make all Oddboyz 75 points.

*OUCH* But I like it... *laugh*

So, no consideration to range reduction for the Oddboyz' weapons instead?

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Markconz

Post subject: Supazzap Guns

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:40 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

To me it seems that orks having such extremely effective firepower that is effectively hidden in formations and shielded by low value units, is not just problematic in terms of game balance, but also unorky in character

A big part of the problem is that Soopa guns have gotten better and they didnt' need to. Given the change to the barrage table and MW barrages - how about dropping Oddboy Soopas to 1 BP? And Oddboy Zzaps to MW4+?

Edit - I wouldn't be adverse to range reductions either (instead of or as well as, but really I would like to see outright killing power of these weapons made less effective irrespective of range). Also just FYI in Epic40k these oddboyz had less range than standard ork guns (45cm big guns, 30cm Oddboyz).

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nealhunt

Post subject: Supazzap Guns

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:22 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Since I preach it all the time, I'd really like to keep the revisions to a minimum. Point cost adjustments are far less complicated in terms of making sure the balance is on when compared to changing stats.

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Chroma

Post subject: Supazzap Guns

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:29 pm

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
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(nealhunt @ Sep. 21 2007,18:22)

QUOTE

Since I preach it all the time, I'd really like to keep the revisions to a minimum. ?Point cost adjustments are far less complicated in terms of making sure the balance is on when compared to changing stats.

Then I'm 100% in favour of 75 points for Oddboyz.

Getting lots of them isn't quite as much of a no-brainer now!

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BlackLegion

Post subject: Supazzap Guns

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:45 pm

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That would be 100pts per gun.

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