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Ork Army List Point Progression
nealhunt
 Post subject: Ork Army List Point Progression
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:06 pm 
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I commented on this a while back, but the ork army lists tend to stick to a few set sequences for the formation cost and big/uge discounts.  Basically, it runs something like ~10-15% break for big and an identical point cost reduction for each increment.  This works out to:

100/175/250 - 25 point discount per upgrade (-25/-50 = -12.5%/17%)
125/225/325 - 25 point discount per upgrade (-25/-50 = -10%/14%)
150/250/350 - 50 point discount (-50/-100 = -17%/-22%)
175/300/425 (proposed) - 50 point discount (-50/-100 = -14%/-19%)
200/350/500 - 50 point discount (-50/-100 = -12.5%/-17%)
225/400/575 (proposed) - 50 point discount (-50/-100 = -11%/-15%)
275/475/675 (proposed) - 75 point discount (-75/-150 = -14%/-18%)


This is fairly consistent with respect to discount, although the 150/250/350 series is a bit higher.

I think that sticking with this kind of pattern can iron out some of the point cost oddities in the ork lists.

For example, in the Freeks list the Outriders are definitely too cheap, eventually dropping well below the cost of a bike in the KoS formation.  The Warband seems just a bit too cheap, though it is a modest increment and most noticeable in larger formations.  On the flip side, the Fortress Mob does not have nearly enough discount to make it a viable choice.  If we used the above patterns, the Freek list would go to:

Warband - 225/400/575
Outriders - 150/250/350 (still the best discount in an ork list)
Fortress mob - 275/475/675

I think the Feral warband costs are pretty good except for the Steam Gargants, which seem to be a no-brainer.  Thse could bump up a series:

Steam Gargant - 225/400/575

===

More later...

===

Edit - added in 175 progression.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Ork Army List Point Progression
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:40 pm 
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Basically, if you wanted to create a formation for the Orks, all you'd need to do is add up the "Extras" cost so it was pretty close to the base of one of the series and fill in the blanks.

Say you wanted a Fortress-based army to represent Great Fiend Gorsnik's War Horde...

Gorsnik's Fortress Band
Nob, 3 Boyz, 1 Grot, Gunfortress (~230 points)
225/400/575

Or...

Morbad's "Bigga Gunz"
Nob, 3 Gunz, Soopagun (185 points)
200/350/500

Or...

Squig Herd
Nob, Boyz, 2 Grots, 6 Squigs (Wildboyz stats) (~140 points)
150/250/350

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Markconz
 Post subject: Ork Army List Point Progression
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:05 am 
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Well I'm in favour of this cleanup (and have already stuck it in the handbook since v1.3).

Steam Gargants are currently at the 200 level, and Outriders at the 150. You guys may be right that these are too cheap.

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yme-loc
 Post subject: Ork Army List Point Progression
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:21 am 
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(nealhunt @ Sep. 05 2007,17:06)
QUOTE
I think the Feral warband costs are pretty good except for the Steam Gargants, which seem to be a no-brainer. ?Thse could bump up a series:

Steam Gargant - 225/400/575

===

More later...

The points formula seems fine.

But trust me junkka trukk brigades at 150/250/350 are insane anyone who thinks they can beat me using a 3000pts army of 250+ of these things with some wyrd boyz thrown in, is welcome to try - the only reason its not become a huge problem is because it costs so much money to put the army together.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Ork Army List Point Progression
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:01 pm 
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I think that this needs to be split into two areas Speed Freaks & Ferals.

Do people really have a big problem with Out Riders - I mainly use them to fill up a Landa for an air assault. What problems have others faced?

I don't feel that an increase is warranted for a normal SF warband, big and uge at +25 and +50, but nothing more is required. This simple change would greatly affect the composition of my SF armies and would probably result in me only playing with Big formations and not Uge ones.

Fortress mob - Yes I'd go with those changes.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Ork Army List Point Progression
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:07 pm 
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Ferals I feel that these are an army to draw with as it can be very difficult to win with if your opponent appreciates how slow these are.

Steam Gargants, if you are not facing IG then these are almost a no-brainer, but they do tend to either be left to defend the blitz.

There is a proposal to reduce the speed of Boarboyz and this will help to fix the army, but I agree with Yme-loc that an army of Boarboys and Junkamobz is just silly at the moment.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Ork Army List Point Progression
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:55 am 
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They are a cheap activation, but so are Roughriders. However, if your opponent appreciates what they can do then he will target them and remove the problem.  I have played against a large formation of Outriders when they were spread across the table to prevent me from advancing into my opponents half. A quick engagment on one flank removed their threat. Note that I have also faced this against rangers and they were alot harder to remove.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Ork Army List Point Progression
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:03 am 
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(Tiny-Tim @ Sep. 10 2007,09:55)
QUOTE
They are a cheap activation, but so are Roughriders. However, if your opponent appreciates what they can do then he will target them and remove the problem.

Whenever I see a problematic formation a typical defence is 'yes but opponents will quickly learn to target them'.

Everytime I see that phrase now, I think uhuh - that's something that genuinely needs changing...  :;):

Note based on discussions and polls here (and at SG),  roughriders got dropped to just 1 attack (still first strike though).

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Ork Army List Point Progression
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:20 am 
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(Markconz @ Sep. 10 2007,11:03)
QUOTE
Everytime I see that phrase now, I think uhuh - that's something that genuinely needs changing... ?:;):

And I often see them as army quirks which help add flavour.

Its funny that when I play guard the first formations to be attacked are usually Deathstrikes, Vultures and Roughriders. I will myself identify the formations that I want to attack in my opponents army first as these will do the most damage to me.

Flavour - now when somebody starts using this word what do you start thinking? ?:devil: ?:;):

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Markconz
 Post subject: Ork Army List Point Progression
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:21 am 
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(Tiny-Tim @ Sep. 10 2007,10:20)
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Flavour - now when somebody starts using this word what do you start thinking?  :devil:  :;):

Cheddar!  :;):  :laugh:

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