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Black Legion Developments
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=33131		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Steve54 [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Developments
These are the changes that have been highlighted for development by the NDC project

Increase range on Hellblades to 30cm from current 15cm.
Increase range on Hellblades to 30cm from current 15cm and decrease AA to 6+ from current 5+.
Change flamer attacks from 2 4+attacks to 1 3+ attack.
Give Daemonettes 20cm Move.
Give keeper of Secrets 20cm Move.
Undivided beasts gets 5+ save from current 4+

I've no problem with any of them (except for raising the Hellblade range without changing it to 6+), but I'd particularly appreciate testing of the daemon changes (especially the flamer and the beast changes).

I've been using the Black Legion list heavily the last few months and IMO the list is well balanced and has very few never-use units or formations. However there are a couple of issues that could do with some discussion.

Cult Marine upgrade - I never use this as the cost of adding 4 stands that don't really add much apart from Fearless is prohibitive. I'd always choose 2 obliterators over them. We could change the upgrade to 2-4 or even have it replacing CSM stands? Connected to this and will need the view of the WE champ as well is whether Berzerkers need changing to make them, and indeed WE, viable.

Bikes - currently 300 for 8, compared to Raptors at 175 for 3 (8 for 315). Do the bikes need more flexibility or a pricedrop?
Author:  GlynG [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Developments
Changes mostly seem reasonable. I'd rather keep the existing Hellblade stats.

I'd prefer to see the cult upgrades be cheaper and replace 4 of the core CSM rather than being an addition to the formation. 425 for 12 infantry or 485 with transports is too unwieldy and expensive for what it does and I'd never take them as is. An alternative could be to replace them with the all Cult marines support formation as in the Red Corsairs last.

I'd also like Obliterators to be transportable in Land Raiders (taking up two slots), as they can be in 40k. Currently Chaos Marines can't field an all mechanized army with mobile ground AA and that seems strategically unrealistic and unnecessarily limiting.

Adding the option to take a Chaos Spawn as an upgrade would be characterful and welcome too.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Developments
I like the proposed changes (I think the reduced save on the beasts is a step too far personally.... poor doggies!)

I think the bike formation should drop to 6 for 250pts (something I'd like to trial in the Red Corsairs too.... maybe for adoption by EUK eventually)

Cult marines, the best solution is probably adopting the red corsairs version of replacing normal stands rather than adding to the formation, you're right that 90% of the time 2 obliterators is a better choice for the same points, now you'll have 4 stands of fearless 4+RA thousand sons to make your BTS much more robust
Author:  Mrdiealot [ Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Developments
Wholeheartedly agree on Cult Marines replacing CSM. That Cult Marines were so pointless has been my pet peeve with Black Legion since I first read the list.
Author:  Mrdiealot [ Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Developments
kyussinchains wrote:
I like the proposed changes (I think the reduced save on the beasts is a step too far personally.... poor doggies!)


A mate of mine exclusively use Beasts when playing LatD, and have had great success with it. Next after the Flamers, they're the most useful.
Author:  Mrdiealot [ Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Developments
I'm really surprised that people didn't support nerfing the Thousand Sons armour btw. They're by far the best Cult Marine unit thanks to that, and the Berzerkers continue to be pretty useless (unless combined with a Thunderhawk).

I'd also like to see that the SM rebate for Land Raiders that is being discussed carries over to CSM lists.
Author:  captPiett [ Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Developments
I’m much more conservative I guess.
My opinion on these:
Helblades are good as they are. Having excellent AA but needing to put them in harms way with the short range seems like a good trade off to me.
Slaanesh daemons: the nerf to the flamers, and FS they already have, should make them more attractive. 20cm move is unnecessary. With the keeper of secrets shooting a move bump is even less needed for her (3/4 of a chaos cannon fm kind of, when you think about it). She can reach out and bad-touch someone no problem.

No opinion on the beasts, but flamers could use the nerf.
Author:  Norto [ Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Developments
Honestly think it was just a mistaken reading in the vote for hell blades to just get a 15cm increase.

Im starting to feel beasts could go to 5+ armour and flamers stay the same. Pretty sure its the best of both worlds FF and CC that makes the the go to daemon of choice.

Raptors do seem the better choice being able to make use of cover. Plus not having to take the full 8 makes them also more flexible when list writing.

Another thing i was thinking about too. Could thunderhawks be a thing in a world eater list?
Author:  SpeakerToMachines [ Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Developments
Hellblades - I like them as is - high reward for dangerously close approaches seems appropriate and distinctive.

Flamers - why not simply replace them with Horrors from the Daemon World list? They have a perfectly fine "troops daemon" 4+/4+/3+ statline already. The Flamers are "elite daemons" in 40K, too, it always seemed a little strange that these were the lesser daemon choice in Epic.

Daemonettes - sounds fine; They are certainly the most lackluster lesser daemon available.

Keeper - sounds fine, as above.

Beasts - I rather like the default lesser daemon save to be 4+ (except Plaguebearers, and 3+ is their thing). Perhaps drop their CC to 4+, if they need a nerf? They *are* very good as they are.

Cult marines - definitely support replacing stands instead of adding them, if we ever want to see them in the field.

Bikes - seem fine to me; Less flexible, but slightly faster seems a good tradeoff.
Author:  Armiger84 [ Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Developments
Yeah, while initially 30cm AA6+ sounded interesting, I’m increasingly cooling on it.

Frankly, getting in to 15cm is rough against bigger, heavier flyers, but throwing 6x AA4+ on intercept against ground attack fighter-bombers is always fun.

Rough risk/reward payoff, but it’s because you have to throw them at the right targets. Thawks and Fighta-bommas will tear them out of the skies, but Tbolts should be sweating when Hellblades are on CAP.

If you want to shoot down a Thawk... roll up on it with a Decimator after it air assaults and drop a template on it. I have yet to find a better solution other than plinking ineffectively with Hell Talons :P
Author:  Mrdiealot [ Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Developments
Hell Blades with 15cm and 5+ AA makes them excellent against very specific targets. 30cm makes them much more versatile against both ground and air targets, and will make it a lot easier to avoid getting fired at, meaning that the unit might actually stick around for the entire battle / get to activate the next round.
Author:  Dave [ Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Developments
The EC list has Cult and Havoc upgrades as replace 2 or 4 marines for +25 or +50, respectively. For backwards compatibility (12 or 16 unit formations) you can a Chaos Marine upgrade (ie, add more chaos marines so they can be upgraded to Cult or Havocs).

Bikes see a lot of use here. uberChris has played lists with 4 formations in it.
Author:  Mrdiealot [ Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Developments
Played a game with the proposed changes, including that of Cult Marines replacing CSM in the same way as in the Red Corsairs. Made the ordinary retinues a lot more fun and a lot harder to wipe out. Overall I think it would be a really good change.

My second impression is that even with the nerf down to 1 3+ attack, Flamers are still by far the most versatile lesser daemon.

Used Hellblades with 30cm range which makes all the difference when trying to avoid enemy AA when making ground attacks.

Didn't get to try the Keeper as the formation that could summon it got broken before. Daemonettes with 20cm didn't do much difference, but I think it improves the "feel" of the unit a lot (slaanesh are supposed to be fast after all).
Author:  Ole [ Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Developments
Cult Marine upgrade:

I like the idea of replacing the CSM stands to Cult Marines. You could make a decent Tzeentch army even without a approved Thousand Sons List.
I’m not saying the change makes the Cult Marines List obsolete, because you still have the combination of Daemon Engines and Marines but it would become a close alternative.

On the flamer issue:
Go for it. It makes the 1ksons list much easier to develop.
Author:  Elrik [ Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Developments
I like the upgrade version much more than adding Cult marines/havocs. I only have one opinion in the matter: either change TS armour from 4+ to 5+ RA or change their points. The staying power the 4+ RA adds, is worth so much more than any other cult marines bonuses (or Havocs).
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