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nurgle titans and engines
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=26530		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Cik [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:27 am ]
Post subject:  nurgle titans and engines
why do these things seem to be almost deliberately bad? they're overcosted and almost total jokes, they have no firepower at all and aren't particularly tough, either. imperial titans are almost without exception incredible, so why are nurgle titans and superheavies so bad? nurgle daemon engines are also totally anemic and also overcosted

look at this:


Plague Reaper WE 15cm 4+ 4+ 4+ Nurgling Swarm (base contact) (Assault Weapons), EA(+1) DC3, Fearless, Reinforced Armour.
3x Twin Heavy Bolter 30cm AP4+ Critical Hit Effect: Destroyed. Any units within 5cm of the model suffer a hit on a D6 roll of 6.
2x Las Cannon 45cm AT5+
Demolisher Cannon 30cm AP3+/AT4+, Ignore Cover
Pus Cannon 30cm 2BP

this thing is basically an imperial baneblade except it's flat WORSE and it's more expensive. the hell?


another example, repugnant titan:

Repugnant Titan WE 20cm 4+ 4+ 4+ Rot Mortar 60cm 3BP, FxF DC 7, Void Shields 4, Fearless, Reinforced Armour, Walker.
2x Putrifier Cannon 60cm 3x AP3+/AT5+

this thing is 625 points. for what? even for killing infantry it's not great, and for anything else it's a total joke. it's tough(er) but not nearly enough to justify it being the same cost as a reaver while losing like half the firepower but what is it even supposed to kill? for a massive activation disadvantage you take for this thing it's just pathetic. any equally costed imperial titan would smear this thing without even noticing it exists. any ork titan, for that matter. even infantry would likely push it over, the thing it's supposed to hunt!



another example, plague tower

here you have something that's just really weird: a transport that's not faster than infantry that's tough but without any firepower to speak of

or at least, none considering it's cost of 325 points.. without any of the infantry that it's going to transport.

it has a min barrage strength 4 60 CM weapon.. it's OK. i guess.

2 battle cannons.. i guess..

plague mortar: a 90 cm 3+ anti-infantry weapon

what the hell is this thing even supposed to accomplish? you can remove a single stand of infantry somewhere on the enemy side of the map with like 60% certainty (assuming it has no save, if it does the chance goes way down)

it's way more expensive than it has any right to be. no way this thing has ever once been used successfully, right?

i've just been over it and i can't think of any way to deploy this thing that would be of any use at all.

contagion towers are likewise kind of bad. either overcosted or undergunned


likewise the great unclean one seems really, really weak. it has no macro attack? what? it suffers from the same problem as the rest of the nurgle-aligned weapons: it has no punch at all, even if it should. if the nurgle philosophy is to make tough, enduring things that are still threatening all of these things are utter failures. there is no reason to ever take a great unclean one over another greater daemon, except for fluff reasons.

plaguebearers are alright, but plague zombies are useless except for third-turn objective contesting shenanigans. even for attacking near-defenseless things like artillery positions they're borderline useless. they simply don't cause enough damage to be threatening.


do you guys disagree or should these things be fixed? if things are supposed to be roughly as effective per-point as each other, disregarding factions, why are these things in particular so abysmal?

thoughts?

remember: papa nurgle loves you. overcosting all of his engines of death he worked so hard on makes him a sad panda :(


[spoiler] i'd totally be up for theorycrafting some new stats for these things by the way, if anyone's up for it [/spoiler]
Author:  mordoten [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: nurgle titans and engines
Haha, i love your enthusiasm! Go, go, go!
Author:  kyussinchains [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: nurgle titans and engines
plague zombies are awesome... teleport them in, surround an enemy formation, they engage plague zombies, win, zombies don't take hackdowns, refuse tro move, stuff can't get out....
Author:  Irisado [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: nurgle titans and engines
I'm sorry, but, regardless of how you may have intended to phrase your post, it just came over as an angry rant, so it's unlikely to persuade anyone that you have much of a case.

If you want to demonstrate that these units are all underpowered and/or cost too many points, the way to do it is not to post their stat lines and complain about them, it's to post battle reports with detailed analysis which support the points you're making.
Author:  LordotMilk [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: nurgle titans and engines
kyussinchains wrote:
plague zombies are awesome... teleport them in, surround an enemy formation, they engage plague zombies, win, zombies don't take hackdowns, refuse tro move, stuff can't get out....


^this^

Well, not "awesome", but definitely useful.

Irisado wrote:
If you want to demonstrate that these units are all underpowered and/or cost too many points, the way to do it is not to post their stat lines and complain about them, it's to post battle reports with detailed analysis which support the points you're making.


All the points he is making (apart from the plague zombies and, perhaps, the GUO) are common knowledge. They have been amply experienced and demonstrated in the past. Try them out yourself against competitive players. You'll find yourself thinking you took a Morgenstern to a Panzer battle.

Cik wrote:
[spoiler] i'd totally be up for theorycrafting some new stats for these things by the way, if anyone's up for it [/spoiler]


Well , DG is up for a relaunch and LatD is back to experimental, so I suppose you might see some changes in the future. Don't be too hopeful on participating on development though.
Author:  Steve54 [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: nurgle titans and engines
Sigh
Author:  kyussinchains [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: nurgle titans and engines
Plaguereaper needs a buff to its main gun, then it's plenty good, 3BP disrupt works well on EUK version, it has built-in fearless and is actually reasonably decent in engagements with 4x4+ CC attacks, a good order of magnitude better than the baneblade qnyway

also bear in mind it's in a SR4 army which makes the double-up-prep-and-sustain tactic much more viable than in a poxy SR2 guard army..... is it also int1+? (Cant find it easily on my phone)
Author:  madd0ct0r [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: nurgle titans and engines
take a look at the chaos titan list - ignore the CC weapon stats, they're being returned to normal and the Imperator options introduced as soon as I can find the origional files again.
Author:  Cik [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: nurgle titans and engines
kyussinchains wrote:
Plaguereaper needs a buff to its main gun, then it's plenty good


yes. the baneblade itself is a little weak IMO, but you're right about the main cannon. it's heavy bolters and lascannons(?) are perfectly functional.

Quote:
3BP disrupt works well on EUK version, it has built-in fearless and is actually reasonably decent in engagements with 4x4+ CC attacks, a good order of magnitude better than the baneblade anyway



agree

Quote:
also bear in mind it's in a SR4 army which makes the double-up-prep-and-sustain tactic much more viable than in a poxy SR2 guard army..... is it also int1+? (Cant find it easily on my phone)


the nurgle titan legions are 1+ AFAIK, the rest of the list is 2+ (it says on the top of the list "all chaos navy and daemon engines have 2+ init) which i assume includes the assault retinue which is comprised of 1-3 plague reapers.. which i assume count as daemon engines. yeah.



as for the titans i'd favor either making them much tougher than their imperial counterparts or more deadly. or both.

if you want them to be infantry hunters that's cool and fluffy but they need to be able to do it better than they currently do IMO


darn this whole paragraph


also obligatory "steve, pls"


edit: post formatting
edit: fixed
Author:  Steve54 [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: nurgle titans and engines
I quite agree with your points re the war engines Cik, though I'm not convinced regarding zombies, and they will be addressed in the redux.

My 'sigh' was at LoM starting with the snide comments again
Author:  Cik [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: nurgle titans and engines
Steve54 wrote:
I quite agree with your points re the war engines Cik, though I'm not convinced regarding zombies, and they will be addressed in the redux.

My 'sigh' was at LoM starting with the snide comments again


oh. sorry then.

zombies aren't actually bad. or at least, i could see them being successfully used as long as you have a strategy firmly in mind when you take them.

not disregarding the end turn objective contesting shenanigans which could work. i'd still prefer them to be more capable in actual combat, but that's personal preference on my part.

also they're cheap which helps.

i feel like i'm being too negative. i'd like to state for the record that the infantry in the list is totally acceptable, as far as i can tell. 9/10 would take piles of.
Author:  dptdexys [ Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: nurgle titans and engines
Have a look at the equivalent units in the E-UK list, they are armed similar but gain a bit of disrupt and ignore cover on some weapons.
It may be worth giving that list a try to see if it feels a good enough upgrading of the units, you may feel it's not enough of a boost but with a couple of games you should get a good feel of if it's going in the right direction.

Cik wrote:
Plague Reaper WE 15cm 4+ 4+ 4+ Nurgling Swarm (base contact) (Assault Weapons), EA(+1) DC3, Fearless, Reinforced Armour.
3x Twin Heavy Bolter 30cm AP4+ Critical Hit Effect: Destroyed. Any units within 5cm of the model suffer a hit on a D6 roll of 6.
2x Las Cannon 45cm AT5+
Demolisher Cannon 30cm AP3+/AT4+, Ignore Cover
Pus Cannon 30cm 2BP

this thing is basically an imperial baneblade except it's flat WORSE and it's more expensive. the hell?


E-UK plague reaper has worse CC (5+ with no extra attack) but has
3x HB AP5+
3x Lascannons AT5+
Demolisher Cannon AP3+/AT4+ ignore cover FF
Pus Cannon 3BP disrupt,ignore cover FF (arc is worse but firepower is better)

Quote:
another example, repugnant titan:

Repugnant Titan WE 20cm 4+ 4+ 4+ Rot Mortar 60cm 3BP, FxF DC 7, Void Shields 4, Fearless, Reinforced Armour, Walker.
2x Putrifier Cannon 60cm 3x AP3+/AT5+


E-UK version
Gains disrupt and ignore cover on main Barrage weapon
gains ignore cover on the secondary ranged weapon (loses 2 shots overall,E-UK has 4 shots on 1 weapon instead of 3 each on 2)
Gains a CC weapon of 3x TK attacks also gains CC of 3+ (as this is usually the BTS when taken the CC weapon is a great deterrent for Chaos and Codex marine assaults)
Gains 2 extra FF attacks. (for me this helps give it a better secondary roll of assault support),

Quote:
another example, plague tower

These are cheap for a dc6 WE but the problem I usually see is actually getting them into the game to take advantage of their FF support but they do feel expensive in the games where they just get to take a few pot shots at range.
Quote:
contagion towers are likewise kind of bad. either overcosted or undergunned


These I think are fine, I feel the best way to look at these is to compare them to Marine Whirlwinds. For 6.25 points each you gain disrupt on the main BP weapon, better CC, Fearless, Inv. save and a secondary weapon of AP4+/AT6+. Also, I feel the loss of speed is offset by the ability to garrison and hit the enemy deployment zone on sustain fire from turn 1.




Quote:
likewise the great unclean one seems really, really weak. it has no macro attack? what? it suffers from the same problem as the rest of the nurgle-aligned weapons: it has no punch at all, even if it should. if the nurgle philosophy is to make tough, enduring things that are still threatening all of these things are utter failures. there is no reason to ever take a great unclean one over another greater daemon, except for fluff reasons.

The GUnCO for me is like the Tactical marines of GD's, it's OK at everything (OK BP, OK CC, OK FF) but isn't great (or good even) at anything. All the other GD's are great at their chosen disciplines so it always feels as though one of the others would be a better choice whatever your doing.

Quote:
plaguebearers are alright, but plague zombies are useless except for third-turn objective contesting shenanigans. even for attacking near-defenseless things like artillery positions they're borderline useless. they simply don't cause enough damage to be threatening.


I like the plaguebearers and have seen the zombies used very effectively, as others have posted. They are not usually used to be assault troops (a bonus if they do kill something though) they're usually used to block enemy advancing.
Author:  Irisado [ Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: nurgle titans and engines
LordotMilk wrote:
All the points he is making (apart from the plague zombies and, perhaps, the GUO) are common knowledge. They have been amply experienced and demonstrated in the past. Try them out yourself against competitive players. You'll find yourself thinking you took a Morgenstern to a Panzer battle.


Competitive is a meaningless term. It's entirely subjective and relative, so that doesn't persuade me of anything.

I'd appreciate some links (anyone is welcome to provide them) to where this issue has been previously raised, because I've clearly missed it, and I'd like to do some more background reading.
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: nurgle titans and engines
LordotMilk wrote:
Well , DG is up for a relaunch and LatD is back to experimental, so I suppose you might see some changes in the future. Don't be too hopeful on participating on development though.


There you go with those negative waves again! ;)


PS you still owe me that list to test out!
Author:  mnb [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: nurgle titans and engines
i agree with everything in the first post.

i would like to say that the army is fun and can hold it's own against pretty much anyone. i'm not much of a competitive player, so i can't speak for tournament play. but this is a fun list.

that said, certain units could use some tweaking.

the zombies, as mentioned, have had their occasional good moments. but more often the only use they serve are the "third turn shenanigans" (like that phrase). and, come on, they're zombies. they should be fun to play not just something you are taking because they are cheap.

the plague tower is pretty much useless in it's intended role, as a transport. could this be moved to an upgrade to an infantry formation for cheaper? a little buff to it's movement would be nice. maybe shorten the range on it's guns to provide a solid role as an infantry support role and drop it's point value at the same time.

the plague reaper i've used and enjoyed but again it needs a little tweaking, not much. perhaps just drop the points a bit.

the titans certainly need some adjusting, especially the reaver titan (forget the name). it should be changed and redone completely.

i like the contagion towers as they are.

the great unclean one in my opinion is the biggest failure in the list. needs something else to make it worth taking.

again, the list is a lot of fun to play with. i just think the above units need some lovin'.
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