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Iron Warriors V3.1 (final version)

 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:08 am 
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I'm a bit constrained about changing stats/abilities on the Defiler and Obliterator as they are in use in other lists and have been approved.
Dropping the AA on the Ordinatus is an option but that really only helps in a few situations. Food for thought though, thanks mate!

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:15 am 
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I don't think I'd play with Defiler stats as Onyx well points out. However I don't think it should be a formation in Core and / or probably needs a price bump (300 I expect with nothing more than gut) in this specific list. It seems rather sad though that any marine list can elect to not take marines.

There's little to complain about the Ordinatus IMO. As Corax remarked about the IW when escaping the dropsite massacre, "Leave it to the Iron Warriors to always use a bigger gun".

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:37 am 
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Onyx wrote:

Taking Disrupt away from the Ordinatus kind of removes the need for the unit to exist. It would be no different than an artillery company.

Not sure I agree with this exactly. I'm not trying to eliminate the unit, more tone it down as I'm just questioning the need for it to have Disrupt on top of 9BP, as I can see a use for the unit. Would a 9BP unit without disrupt not still have a place as an iconic weapon or the ability to drop lots of BM...?

Onyx wrote:

If any army is going to have access to some of the best artillery in the game, it is the Iron Warriors.

That's one way to look at it. You could also just as easily look at it that they have access to a lot of types of artillery in a Chaos Marine Army as well – which most if not any do, but I do see your direction. What’s wrong with CSM with 9BP artillery companies? It’s completely different to any other list.

Onyx wrote:

Continuing with that thought, if any Chaos army is going to be armoured vehicle or war engine based, it is going to be the Iron Warriors.

Yeah I agree. I just think the Iron Warriors infantry need more presence in the list rather than so much Daemon engine presence. Otherwise apart from the Ordinatus why take IW instead of BL or any other list with Defilers in numbers? For two Chapters so equally opposed in the fluff as siege chapters, a list rife with Daemon Engines instead of CSMs versus an Imperial Fists list doesn’t really look like a IW vs IF game does it?

Onyx wrote:

Because of that, I'm not at all worried about my tournament army only having 2 infantry formations.
For more detail on that, a read of Dead Sky, Black Sun and Storm of Iron will help understand the background of how Iron Warriors do war. The vanguard of Berossus' attack on Honsou consisted of Dreadnoughts, Defilers, Raptors and Obliterators (along with 2 titans). That's just one example of the composition we're trying to capture with this list.

Yeah books are a good place to start but it's just one story, just as your list was another and it just seems you’re not quite capturing what you looking for with all the Defiler spam possible. Did Berossus have 8 formations of Defilers as the bulk of his forces...? I'd love to see a Dreadnought formation on the table more often


Onyx wrote:

- Increase Defilers to 300pts (they will remain a core formation)

I think this is unnecessary if you just reduce their availability – which is my issue with them at least. They can be killed by AT fire so they’re not invulnerable -even though they have the Inv Save! :D
Onyx wrote:

- Increase the Ordinatus Medrengard cost to 650pts
- Reduce the Ordinatus Void shields to 2

Hmmm not really sure this is the right way to go and I don’t want you to weaken the unit just to keep the Disrupt. It sounds weird, but I think I’d rather you kept it the same if you do that because I still think 9BP in an Ordinatus is a cool unit to have in the list.

Onyx wrote:

- Reducing the number of Obliterators in the Obliterator Cult to 4 with a cost reduction to 350

I meant to ask why there’s a need for the Oblit formation at all? Do BL get an Oblit formation?

Onyx wrote:

I'm weary of allowing defensive elements like razor wire and tank traps (as may be expected from the Iron Warriors). It would be to obvious to place them around the Ordinatus (or any artillery formations) making it even harder to deal with. Of course, that's exactly what the Iron Warriors would do but we have to remember this is a game which is supposed to be fair and fun for both players.

How about focussing them on clearing fortifications...? It would be a nice paring with IFs as they would counter each other.


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:28 am 
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Any criticism below is intended only constructively - I'd like to see this list go Gold and get approved. I've played against it about half a dozen times, and played with it just once so have a decent handle on how it works.


It's always the Ordinatus is the sticking point for players; even after its reduction from BP10 Disrupt it remains the one unit in the list that seems to get called "cheesy" or generate negative feedback from opponents, and then require posts defending it.

I don't have an answer or suggestion for this right now, but when I have a moment I'll do some comparisons vs other super-artillery options and formations and see if it's actually fairly priced and statted vs its peers or help suggest something that make it palatable. Whatever happens, the final version shouldn't require the IW player to apologise for the damage before and after firing :D

Regarding the other suggestions:

Quote:
Allowing Dreadnoughts to take a 100pt Supreme Commander upgrade (think of Berossus)
- Allowing Stalkers to be taken as upgrades for the artillery formations


I like the sound of Berossus style commander. However, at the moment the Supreme Commander is the only reason a player is required to take infantry at all (correct me if I am wrong), and moving the AA Stalkers to Artillery Formations would reduce another reason to take infantry and transport formations.
If the result is the list can be built with a SC and AA without any infantry, it inevitably will be built without any infantry. IE this would have all the AP-ignoring strengths of Minervans, but combined with cheap core units for activation numbers and Macro CC spider-tank units.
I'm not going to say that doesn't sound fun, but it would be a real monster for oppponents to have to tackle.
Recommendation: ensure infantry are still required, even if not en masse.

Recommendation: Since Defilers are core in this army, make the formations larger instead of increasing their cost. 5 or 6 at the same price per model would be more useful in combat and shooting, harder to break, but put more of a limit on total activations as Core formations usually do.
Related question: Are defilers definitely the sort of thing that should be core?

Quote:
- Reducing the number of Obliterators in the Obliterator Cult to 4 with a cost reduction to 350


Good suggestion, but this actually makes oblits more appealing rather than less. The obliterator is an unusual case because each put out a remarkable amount of firepower (3x AT4+ when sustaining 45cm after teleporting each) so they will still do their job of disrupting deployment and killing counter-battery fire.
The smaller and cheaper the formation, the less risk to the player; each obliterator is enough to kill one and break a formation of deathstrikes, basilisks or hydras (causing average 1.25 kills on those models each).

TLDR: Smaller cheaper more numerous formations do not weaken the impact of oblits.

Quote:
I'm a bit constrained about changing stats/abilities on the Defiler and Obliterator as they are in use in other lists and have been approved.


There are precedents of units changing when they become formations rather than upgrades if you do decide you need to, although it usually needs a distinct name like Iron Obliterators. Defilers are perfectly fine, the only difference is making them work as a Core choice instead of a restricted one.

Oblits are phenomonal, one of the best units in the game even when not combined with the affect of Artillery on opponent's deployment. I've never been hit by it, but still think 15 AA attacks from a teleporting unit that isn't a dedicated AA unit might be about 10 too many. :D
Recommendation:
Obliterators change from 3xBody Weapons AP5/AT5/AA6
To
Iron Warrior Obliterators 3xBody Weapons AP5/AT5 AND Body Reapers AA6+

This doesn't weaken them in the vast majority of their intended uses but could stop the list hitting an approval road-bump when someone runs several thunderhawks into a Ordinatus protected by 10 oblits (30 AA shots+2 AA shots) and posts "lol whut??" on taccomm. :D

Hope that helps.
As mentioned, cricitism is intended to be constructive; if something is going to come up as a sticking point preventing approval I'd rather it comes up now than later!


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:56 am 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:

Recommendation: Since Defilers are core in this army, make the formations larger instead of increasing their cost. 5 or 6 at the same price per model would be more useful in combat and shooting, harder to break, but put more of a limit on total activations as Core formations usually do.
Related question: Are defilers definitely the sort of thing that should be core?

The question is: Do they need to be core? I agree that increasing their size limits their numbers more, but it also increases their survivability and their hitting power.

(6x) AP4+/AT4+ Battlecannon, AP4+/AT6+ Reaper cannon, AP3 IC Heavy Flamer and 6x 4+CC MW EA+1...? They will live longer to be able to put the majority of all that firepower on a target using Fearless, Infiltrator, Inv Save, Walker. And all for less than the price of a Land Raider formation (ATSKNF not included of course)....

I really like the unit itself (and they model up a treat given Onyx's job on his)but like I said, I'm just not convinced there should be an entire army of them in a CSM list. In terms of the list I'd like to see all the infantry go Core and the Defilers go to Siege Assault - but that's just me :)

BTW Onyx, why did you settle on only 5 Dreadnoughts not 6?


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:21 am 
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I'd also prefer defilers not to be core (and i reallly like defilers as a unit). I'm not up to date on current fluff by a couple of years, but why are defilers core and armoured company not?

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:22 pm 
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Regarding the Ordinatus I really don't see the problem with a 600+ point formation being good when allowed to do what it is built to do. Its still very vulnerable to other artillery, deathstrikes, spaceships, teleporters and air assault and you will need to spend ankther few hundred points in formations tasked only to protect it.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:19 pm 
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Wow, up until a few days ago, the list was looking good. Every person that I'd actually played had made suggestions/comments and I'd acted on them.
Comments like, Defilers are fine as core but should cost more - they were increased by 25pts.
The Ordinatus is too powerful at 10BP - it was reduced to 9BP.
Not a single person that has played a game with me before Cancon has said that the Ordinatus is unfair. I specifically asked every player after the game to make sure. They all said it's tough but it's meant to be tough if you let it play the game it's way. To quote Honsou from Dead Sky, Black Sun - "Get an enemy to react to your designs and he is as good as lost."

It kinda sounds like a few people want this list to be Black Legion with a few big guns. That's not what the Iron Warriors are about and that's not what this list is going to look like.

I'm not going to be changing stats/abilities of existing units. That means we are going to have to find a way to make the Defilers and Obliterators work. I'm open to changing the stats of the Ordinatus but I'm not going to make it a straight 9BP gun. There would be no point in it. A 9BP Ordinatus would not drop lots of BM's and would not be iconic.

With regard to the Iron Warrior list being a Daemon Engine focussed list. I am happy with this and it reflects the way that Iron Warriors interact with Daemons. They don't summon them and follow them into battle like every other Chaos list. They bind them too their weapons (guns/tanks/walking crabs of doom etc) and use them for their own purposes. In this way I have no problem with an Iron Warriors list being all AV/WE. Let's face it, if all AV/WE is good enough for the Minervans then it can be good enough for the Iron Warriors. At least Iron Warriors need to take Infantry if they want Scouts. A list of Iron Warrior Daemon Engine attackers vs Imperial Fist defenders is fine with me and fits the background well.

Is a theoretical army of Defiler spam any different to Thunderhawk spam, Marine scout spam, Krieg Infantry Company spam, Ork Skorcha spam, etc? 10 formations of Defilers would take 40BM's to break in total. Ork Skorcha Kults of Speed could put 128 Skorchas on a board (meaning 128BM's to break the lot) and also add 6 Fighta Bommerz for fun. 7 Krieg Infantry Companies, each with Gorgon transports and Fearless Commissars would take 182BMs to break the lot and has the benefit of 4+ reinforced armour.... I hope you're getting the picture? As a point of difference with all other Chaos armies, Defilers as Core is fitting. It should also be noted that just about every other Chaos list has access to Fearless units as a core formation.

Regarding the Obliterators, there is a well documented relationship between the Iron Warriors and Obliterators, hence the existence of the Obliterator Cult. Reducing the number in the formation is the only way we're going to reduce their impact. I'm not changing the stats. They are restricted well by being 1 support choice per core formation. Another option could be to restrict them further to 0-1 per army (as per Deathstrikes). I'm ok with that.

It's worth noting that the Cancon player that called the Ordinatus "Cheesy" also called many of the Marine lists at the tournament "Cheesy". He also never actually got to play against the Iron Warriors. Almost all other players that have actually played against the thing have said it's tough but fair.

Dreadnoughts are in a formation of 5 as that is the largest number of Dreadnoughts that can fit into the Siegelord Ironfist Assault Pod.

So, with all that said, I'm thinking of the following changes:
- Defilers would stay as core and move to 6 Defilers for 475pts
- Obliterators would change to a formation of 4 for 350pts and become a 0-1 choice
- Ordinatus cost would increase to 625pts
- The Dreadnought formation would stay at 225pts with a 100pt option for a Supreme Commander upgrade
- All artillery formations would receive an option for a Stalker upgrade at 50pts

This should reduce to activation count if Defilers are taken in large numbers (see Matt's post for details). There wouldn't be 10 Obliterators to shot down the precious Thunderhawks. All AV/WE armies would be possible and that's fine as I've outlined above.

I have to say that some of the negative comments have taken the shine off managing to finish 2nd in an 18 player national tournament. I'm not the best player in the world (that's Matt's business) but I went to Cancon to do well in the hopes that my point of view might carry a little more weight. I wasn't there to destroy all opponents and when I played new players, I made suggestions/comments to help them (even losing a game to a new player who picked things up quickly during the weekend). I'm not a power gamer and I'm not trying to build a power gamers list.

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Last edited by Onyx on Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:43 pm 
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IMO Onyx the list is progressing very nicely and I'm struggling to see it as a powergamer list

ignore the 'cheesy' comments you always get somebody who dismisses every list that doesn't fit their narrow idea of how lists should look

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:58 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
IMO Onyx the list is progressing very nicely and I'm struggling to see it as a powergamer list

ignore the 'cheesy' comments you always get somebody who dismisses every list that doesn't fit their narrow idea of how lists should look


+1

I think you're doing a bang-up job with the list Onyx and I look forward to playing it in future, I hope I can get the fists to a point where games between them and the IF will be brutal affairs, as they should be! :D

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Last edited by kyussinchains on Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:16 pm 
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Quote:
I have to say that some of the negative comments have taken the shine off managing to finish 2nd in an 18 player national tournament. I'm not the best player in the world (that's Matt's business) but I went to Cancon to do well in the hopes that my point of view might carry a little more weight. I wasn't there to destroy all opponents and when I played new players, I made suggestions/comments to help them (even losing a game to a new player who picked things up quickly during the weekend). I'm not a power gamer and I'm not trying to build a power gamers list.


I wouldn't worry too much, I'm sure everyone agrees you played extremely well, you played very fair, gave your opponent's clear information and even advice, played the objectives and you deserved to do as well as you did because of it.
Congratulations again on your fantastic result!

It was also a great opportunity to gain feedback on an developmental list, so while the odds were always against the feedback being 100% positive it's still a great way to iron out any kinks that could cause objections that might slow the approval process later on, or to demonstrate they don't need attention.

I'll try get a post comparing the grand artillery formations of the game in detail done over the next couple days so at least the facts and stats are in one place.

(Although I'd rather just play games, playing epic is even more fun than talking about epic lol)


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:28 pm 
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Blimey, you go away for a few weeks and it all kicks off!

First things first, I really like the list. This list finally prompted me to sign up and start contributing to NetEA after a couple of years lurking.

Not played with the Ordinatus yet so take my comments with a pinch of salt but to me it doesn't look outrageous. Compare it with Squat (train with mortar or bomb cars) or AMTL (Mars ordinatus or triple rocket launcher reaver) equivalents and you're gaining some offensive power (indirect fire the main thing) for either more points (compared to Mars ordinatus) or less survivability (compared to the Reaver or Land train) or less flexibility (compared to the Train).

I suppose the other thing to compare to is Manticore company since they have comparable firepower in barrage. Is O. Medrenguard more survivable than a Manticore company? I'm not convinced. Matt's analysis will be interesting to see.

I'm not convinced the formation size changes for defilers and oblits are needed. Defilers in particular are quite fragile when taking saves and a 4 strong formation has very fragile morale while fearless does mitigate this slightly once the formations are broken they can't use all those guns and special abilities.


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:55 am 
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I would prefer Defiler-spam to be harder to field but otherwise the list as it stands seems very interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:03 am 
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I'll bow out of discussion now Onyx. Sorry to upset the apple cart.


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:33 am 
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I like this list! Will never use it but would gladly meet it!

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