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Iron Warriors V3.1 (final version)

 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:48 pm 
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Onyx wrote:
The Assault Marines have options for taking Rhinos which can provide cover (they can also be transported in the Sieglord Titan Ironfist Assault Pod). If Raptors want cover, they have to take a chance on Dangerous Terrain Tests.


The rule for Jump packs
Quote:
2.1.7 Jump Packs
Some units are noted as having jump packs. These units are
equipped with special devices that allow them to fly for short
distances, usually in a series of long ‘hops’.
Units equipped with jump packs may ignore dangerous or
impassable terrain as they move (they jump over it). They may
not land on impassable terrain, and if they land in dangerous
terrain they must take a dangerous terrain test.
Units equipped
with jump packs may also move over other friendly units as
they move, but may not land on them. Units with jump packs
are affected by enemy units and zones of control normally, and
cannot jump over enemy formations.


Raptors are Infantry so would only take a DTT if they landed in terrain that is dangerous for infantry, not just for any terrain that would be dangerous for AV's.


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:23 am 
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Yeah, I knew that, just got my wires crossed and didn't edit it out... :-[ ::)
Thanks for the quote so players aren't confused by my post!

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:45 pm 
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Sorry for the delayed reply mate!

I inherited these costs from Steve54. I believe it's a simple case of the Havoc upgrade being 150pts in the BL list and 2 Chaos Land Raiders being worth 150pts.

Version 2.0a is up for download now (available from the first post).

Changes to V2.0a
December 2013
- Changed the name of the Defiler Assault Group to Defiler Assault Pack
- Increased the points cost of the Defiler Assault Pack to 275pts
- Reduced the cost of the Chaos Siege Dreadnought to 50pts
- Increased the extra attacks on the Chaos Siege Dreadnought Siege Drill to +2
- Reduced the cost of the Iron Warriors Assault Marines upgrade to 125pts
- Changed the name of the Ordinatus Chaotica to Ordinatus Medrendgard
- Corrected a few spelling mistakes

The Armyforge Force Creator is up to date as well.

Cheers,
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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:43 am 
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Just been going through some list options and wondering what stormsword brings to the list? Its role is so close to the decimator and the decimator is considerably better, seems the only reasons would be to save 25pts. If a second SHT is needed, one with a different role might see more play? Or, is a second SHT needed? people can proxy stormswords for decimators, and having decimator as a non-WE allowance choice already sets their selection apart over the BL list.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:10 pm 
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We just had the same conversation the other day.
They were both in the list I inherited and I hadn't really thought about it before.
Of the 2 SHT's, I'd rather keep the Decimator as the Iron Warriors are well know for using daemonic tanks/artillery in the fluff.

I could happily drop the Stormsword in the next update.

Another option I was considering is allowing the addition of a Stalker to the artillery formations. Any one have thoughts on that?

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:04 am 
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It's hard to want to take the grand battery when list-building without being able to attach a stalker; providing air cover ends up coming with a decent points "tax" by requiring another formation (chosen, of course, work well). That said, taking a grand battery is hard anyhow considering how easily out can become a huge fire magnet even without likely being the BTS.

Stalkers for demonic artillery would probably be too good/useful, IMO, and they're already must-haves.

Between mobile, attachable AA and artillery, the list covers a LOT of the Black Legion list's shortcomings even as it currently stands (at the cost of demons).

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Last edited by Armiger84 on Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:09 am 
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Sounds fine to me

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:03 am 
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First, I LOVE this list. I can't wait for our new buddy Volrath to start pummeling my poor Blood Angels and Black Legion with it.

I wanted to address the point discrepancy in the cost of equivalent Havok formations in the IW and BL lists because I see it's come up in this thread. I'm just sort of playing devil's advocate here. Steve, I hope you don't mind if I cut and paste from some PMs you and I traded -

I guess the only thing I can think that would justify the lower cost in IW is that they are competing for slots with some other pretty nice formations like Chosen, Oblit Cults, Terminators, etc. at a ratio of 1 per core formation, whereas the BL Havoks are competing with only Raptors, Defilers, and Bikes at 2 per core. Does that justify a 50 point discount? Maybe. Especially since I think BL is more likely to load up on core choices than IW and have access to more slots.

Yeah... I can see it. The IW Seige Assault section is a very, very crowded field with lots of quality choices. I could see the argument being made, but, it wouldn't bother me if the IW Havok Company went up to 350 either.

It may also be with BL you are paying a premium on the Land Raiders for the option of paying less for the initial buy-in for the squad. 200 points for an activation and a pretty damaging formation in the BL list is a good deal. But if you want the LRs, then you have to pay full price. Whereas with IW, the initial buy-in starts at 300.

Based on all those factors, I can see how the 300 points for the IW Havok Squad makes sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:00 am 
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I've recently played a few more games against IW 2.0a and the list is coming along really well.

Ordinatus Medrendgard - Much improved. The drop in BP so that it automatically places 2 instead of 3 BM and the accompanying cost decrease mean it remains a fantastic unit but can't simply break portions of the opponent's army before even rolling dice. It means a more enjoyable game, and hopefully the price break means it remains a good choice for the IW player.

Defilers as core are an outstanding unit, shooting like a leman russ and then using EA+1 macroweapons in assault makes an impressive combination. They are so versatile it might even be worth trying a list that pushes them near their limit. For an example off the top of my head, something as simple as this might be extremely viable:

HAVOC COMPANY [450]
4 Havocs and 2 Land Raiders, Stalker, Daemon Prince (Supreme Commander)
DEFILER ASSAULT PACK [275] 4 Defilers
DEFILER ASSAULT PACK [275] 4 Defilers
DEFILER ASSAULT PACK [275] 4 Defilers
DEFILER ASSAULT PACK [275] 4 Defilers
DEFILER ASSAULT PACK [275] 4 Defilers
DEFILER ASSAULT PACK [275] 4 Defilers
DEFILER ASSAULT PACK [275] 4 Defilers
DEFILER ASSAULT PACK [275] 4 Defilers
CHOSEN [125] 4 Chaos Space Marine Scouts
HELLBLADE FLIGHT [200] 3 Fighters

(Guide for the casual reader:
Defiler: Fearless, Infiltrator, Inv Save, Walker
AV 20cm Armour 4+ CC 4+ FF 3+
[] Battle Cannon 30cm 75cm AP4+/AT4+
[] Reaper Autocannon AP4+/AT6+
[] Twin Heavy Flamer 15cm AP3+, IC
[] Battle Claws (Contact) AW, Macroweapon, EA +1)

That could be a sleeper-hit list from this armylist. Should it be?

Obliterators - Phenomenal units. The IW list is unique in allowing them to be taken as a formation rather than an upgrade on to others. Steve is working on a battle report that shows just how much a thorn in the side of the opponent a Fearless RA unit with that much firepower can be, but the part that game didn't illustrate is their Anti-air ability.

(Guide for the casual reader:
Obliterators INF 15cm
Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour, Fearless, Teleport
Armour 4+ Reinforced CC 3+ FF 2+
3x Body Weapons 45cm AP5+/AT5+/AA6+ )

They come in units of 5 for 425pts, which is expensive but actually a pretty fair price for a fantastic unit (teleport plus fearless were made for each other). The issue is that now they are allowed in a single unit rather than as an upgrade, they fire 15 Anti-air shots per formation at a range of 45cm. The 2 formations of Oblits I'd consider for my own IA would fire 30 AA 6+ shots.

It's hard to put a points value on that sort of AA, especially coming from a non-dedicated AA unit that has so many other uses, can teleport down-field to cover much of the table and is RA and Fearless. Fortunately it's not my responsibility, but I can offer two suggestions:
1) Drop the AA from Obliterators bought as Formations (ie from the IA Oblits), and compensate them with a price drop (they'd still be good at 400pts, for example).
2) De-couple the AA gun from the body weapon profile, so 3x Body Weapons 45cm AP5+/AT5+/AA6+ becomes 3x Body Weapons 45cm AP5+/AT5+ and Body Reapers 30cm AA6+, leaving the price the same but giving them 'only' 5 AA shots per formation.

These are just suggestions. Steve was asking what I'd take if using IA vs a Space Marine air assault list. In it's current incarnation, I'd probably take 2 stalkers and 2 formations of oblits in any Take-All-Comers list anyway, and if you kept the Oblits around the Ordinatus instead of teleporting forward that could get you 30 Oblit shots and 4 Stalker AA shots against the arriving thunderhawks.
(That is not a tailored-list btw, just a tailored deployment).

I hope the feedback is useful. It's a great list, IW > SM :D


Last edited by Matt-Shadowlord on Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:06 am 
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while my feedback wont be as credible considering i havent played with the IW list yet, I will chime in though on the fluff standpoint of having stormswords in there, and the appeal of having imperial units from a fluff standpoint. Even if it is not as 'good' as the decimator, having variety is nice, especially since we're just here to have fun. Besides, why take it out if people have lots of models for it already?

I'd say leave it in, can't harm anyone, and seems fluffy for an IW list to me. Cheers


and yes i would like to use the stormsword models i have AND decimator models...haha =)

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:49 am 
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Hi Onyx.

Well after Cancon I have two issues (first one we discussed already in person but I thought best to put in this thread):

1/ Medrengard - 9BP Disrupt is ugly. I was thankful for being Marines who needed all their ATSKNF to weather the BM numbers. Other lists don't have that luxury. 9BP is fine but is the Disrupt truly necessary given the extra BMs that 9BP inflicts?

2/The Defilers- Given the spammability they make the list look like a Daemon Engine list not a Chaos Space Marine list. I don't imagine a game of IW vs IF to look how I expect

Case in point:
Quote:
HAVOC COMPANY [450]
4 Havocs and 2 Land Raiders, Stalker, Daemon Prince (Supreme Commander)
DEFILER ASSAULT PACK [275] 4 Defilers
DEFILER ASSAULT PACK [275] 4 Defilers
DEFILER ASSAULT PACK [275] 4 Defilers
DEFILER ASSAULT PACK [275] 4 Defilers
DEFILER ASSAULT PACK [275] 4 Defilers
DEFILER ASSAULT PACK [275] 4 Defilers
DEFILER ASSAULT PACK [275] 4 Defilers
DEFILER ASSAULT PACK [275] 4 Defilers
CHOSEN [125] 4 Chaos Space Marine Scouts
HELLBLADE FLIGHT [200] 3 Fighters

Perhaps limit them or force more CSM usage? Onyx, your Cancon list had only 2 CSM infantry formations.
Quote:
Defilers as core are an outstanding unit, shooting like a leman russ and then using EA+1 macroweapons in assault makes an impressive combination. They are so versatile it might even be worth trying a list that pushes them near their limit.

Perhaps too versatile for the points and availability?


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:43 pm 
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Hey Dobbsy, thanks for the comments mate.

The Ordinatus is always a rude shock when it's first encountered. It reminds me of the way players feel after their first game against Necrons... something like - what the heck just happened there?! :o :D

Some of the comments from players that have played against the Ordinatus are things like - yeah it's tough but it's 600pts it should be tough, I don't feel it's too overpowered, you just broke my Leman Russ Company in 1 barrage, thank God it doesn't have macro weapon or Ignore Cover as well etc. It is interesting to note that several of my opponents from Cancon don't seem to have a problem with the Ordinatus as it is.

I also know that players that have faced the Iron Warriors multiple times have found ways to deal with them. It's worth noting that you yourself took the game with me to 4 turns (with ground pounding Space Wolves) and it was a 0:0 draw (VP win to the Iron Warriors). Not bad for your first game against something new.

In the last year, the Ordinatus has been destroyed by Ghazgkhull's Orks, Ork Gargants, Minervan Tanks and Codex Marines. It is relatively fragile once the opponents can get to it. I'm a firm believer in making army lists that can reach/impact any part of the board. Armies that are designed to impact any part of the board can (and do) really mess with a slow, non-fearless War Engine. The simple answer that occurs to me when facing the Ordinatus is - kill it before it kills my stuff. Any army list is capable of bringing units that can do this. It's either that or try to minimise the damage it can do by planning formation movement carefully.

Taking Disrupt away from the Ordinatus kind of removes the need for the unit to exist. It would be no different than an artillery company. If any army is going to have access to some of the best artillery in the game, it is the Iron Warriors. Continuing with that thought, if any Chaos army is going to be armoured vehicle or war engine based, it is going to be the Iron Warriors. Because of that, I'm not at all worried about my tournament army only having 2 infantry formations. For more detail on that, a read of Dead Sky, Black Sun and Storm of Iron will help understand the background of how Iron Warriors do war. The vanguard of Berossus' attack on Honsou consisted of Dreadnoughts, Defilers, Raptors and Obliterators (along with 2 titans). That's just one example of the composition we're trying to capture with this list.

Now with all that said, here's some thoughts I've had today to try and reduce the shock that is that first game against the Iron Warriors:
- Increase Defilers to 300pts (they will remain a core formation)
- Increase the Ordinatus Medrengard cost to 650pts
- Reduce the Ordinatus Void shields to 2

Other ideas I've had for the continued development of the Iron Warriors:
- Allowing Dreadnoughts to take a 100pt Supreme Commander upgrade (think of Berossus)
- Allowing Stalkers to be taken as upgrades for the artillery formations
- Reducing the number of Obliterators in the Obliterator Cult to 4 with a cost reduction to 350

I'm weary of allowing defensive elements like razor wire and tank traps (as may be expected from the Iron Warriors). It would be to obvious to place them around the Ordinatus (or any artillery formations) making it even harder to deal with. Of course, that's exactly what the Iron Warriors would do but we have to remember this is a game which is supposed to be fair and fun for both players.

Anyone else have some thoughts about this?

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:29 pm 
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yes the ordinatus is a shock when u first face it, but its something that u learn to deal with - adapt or die!

also remember when facing Onyx he usually have 1-2 formations surrounding it to protect the cowardly thing...which makes it even harder to crack but then again that's 1-2 formations that remain fairly static in the game and u dont have to worry about so much until u make the call to tackle the Ordinatus...

points increase for Defilers seems fair, although maybe drop Infiltrate and leave points as it?

as for the Ordinatus...perhaps drop the AA instead of changing void shields and points cost...

Stalker for Arty company is a good idea...

Oblits unit size decrease is reasonable or alter the AA to single shot of each stand (then it wont seem so horrendous)

overall i think its a list ppl need to face more often to get a feel for it and then adapt tactics to suit...

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