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Iron Warriors Chaos Stalker AA tank stats/cost adjustment?
Poll ended at Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:55 am
Decrease cost to 35pts each 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Increase the number of shots to 2x 30cm, AT5+/AA5+ 71%  71%  [ 12 ]
Other (discuss below) 24%  24%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 17

Iron Warriors Stalker AA Tank stats/cost?

 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors Stalker AA Tank stats/cost?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:08 pm 
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I do agree with the concern over potential power creep - especially in the air-game, which tends to unbalance E:A very rapidly. The arrival of more aircraft, with the tendency to want the next one to be 'better' in some way, is a recipe for disaster. To some extent, the arrival of 'better' AA capabilities can be equally unbalancing.

One test is to consider whether this unit is a "no-brainer", taken by default where at all possible and effectively relegates the Hunter to oblivion. If so, then the proposed stats would need to be treated with caution, not least because it would tend to power up the Landing craft (carrying the relevant formations with the Stalker as an upgrade)

tbh I am not sure either way at the moment, though have always felt the Marines AA was underwhelming - and whether this in-built weakness should be maintained is a completely different question . . . ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors Stalker AA Tank stats/cost?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:36 pm 
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There will be no Landing Craft - we're talking about adding the Stalker to the Iron Warriors list Ginger, a Chaos Space Marine sub-list. There's no need for it with SM as they already have the Hunter, but CSM lack a vehicle AA unit. In W40k it's a new marine unit but we are assuming these to be ones with the traitor Legions or captured/manufactured since.


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors Stalker AA Tank stats/cost?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:41 pm 
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Depends on the fluff....

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors Stalker AA Tank stats/cost?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:16 pm 
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Hunter

10 points more than current Predator
Skyspear Missile Launcher: 60" S7, AP2, Heavy 1, Savant Lock, Armorbane
Savant Lock: When shooting at a flyer or flying monstrous creature, you put a marker on it for each miss. The markers stay on the flyer until it leaves the table, is destroyed or is engaged in close combat. At the beginning of every friendly shooting phase you roll for those markers. On a 5 or a 6 that missile hits vehicles in the rear armor, these shots are resolved using the above profile.

Stalker

Same cost as new Predator cost
Icarus Storm Cannon Array: 48", S7, AP4, Heavy 4
Icarus has two firing modes: Single target and Dual Target
Single target: above profile, twin-linked
Dual target: Must be declared before shooting. Pick two targets in range and resolve shooting attacks against them using both of them, but at BS2

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors Stalker AA Tank stats/cost?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:29 am 
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BlackLegion wrote:
It's consistency.
One name = one stat

Same in Wh40k.



that's not really a reasonable explanation though; any reasonable person would expect that medium-calibre-gun-mounted-in-a-direct-fire-bracket would have a different statline to medium-calibre-gun-mounted-in-an-anti-air-bracket, and they would both have different statlines to medium-calibre-gun-carried-by-infantry.

The actual name of a weapon has no in game baring and shouldn't be used as a limiting factor in and balance decisions.


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors Stalker AA Tank stats/cost?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:28 am 
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MikeT wrote:
BlackLegion wrote:
It's consistency.
One name = one stat

Same in Wh40k.



that's not really a reasonable explanation though; any reasonable person would expect that medium-calibre-gun-mounted-in-a-direct-fire-bracket would have a different statline to medium-calibre-gun-mounted-in-an-anti-air-bracket, and they would both have different statlines to medium-calibre-gun-carried-by-infantry.

The actual name of a weapon has no in game baring and shouldn't be used as a limiting factor in and balance decisions.
Umm, so you are suggesting that a 20mm cannon mounted in a Spitfire wing should have different stats from a 20mm cannon mounted on a truck. . . .
Well there are a whole lot of variables in there to be sure, but the 20mm shell still causes the same amount of damage irrespective of the gun that shot it ;)

The basic point here is that E:A is very abstracted and so we tend to overlook the fine details that govern accuracy etc in favour of a degree of simplicity, not least because of game constraints like the use of D6 dice. A number of conventions are used; "Twin" mounted weapons tend to get +1, while aircraft weaponry tends to have a much reduced range; and where there is a specific need to make some other distinction we tend to add the unit name to the weapon so "Revenant Pulsar" rather than "Pulsar".

However where the same weapon is used throughout the rules, the convention is to use the same stats wherever possible both because they are known and understood and because they generally translate to the W40K world (well until Grandma Wendy changes them in a fit of sales marketing pique :D )


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors Stalker AA Tank stats/cost?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:34 pm 
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I have seen the entry of the Stalker in the new Codex Space Marines. The profie given for the Icarus Stormcannon is for BOTH turrets. Not for each one.
So it should have only a single shot in Epic or two shots with worse to hit value.

Icarus Storm Cannon Array
30cm AP4+/AT6+/AA4+
OR
30cm 2 x AP5+/AT7+/AA5+

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors Stalker AA Tank stats/cost?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:46 pm 
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Interestung fluff bit:

The Hunter ist the standard Space Marine AA-tank. The Stalker is a variant of the Hunter-STC discovered some thousands years ago.

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Last edited by BlackLegion on Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors Stalker AA Tank stats/cost?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:52 am 
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Ok, I think I'll go with this:
Quote:
50pts, Armoured Vehicle, 30cm movement, 5+ Armour, 6+ CC, 6+ FF, Stalker Autocannons, 2x 30cm range, AP5+/AT6+/AA5+
It's a little bit better than the original but not as good as we were thinking it might be.
Thanks for the info BlackLegion!

I'll have the updated list out tonight.

Cheers,
Steve.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors Stalker AA Tank stats/cost?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:26 pm 
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Sorry to resurrect this old topic, but this seemed the best place to bring this up....

re-reading the Emperor's children list in preparation for some playtests over the next few weeks, I have to say that I'm not a fan of the stalker at all, as it is currently it's pretty awful with 30cm range, a little math shows that an AA unit with 45cm range has approximately twice the table coverage that an AA unit with 30cm range does.... as the main purpose of ground flak is generally to deter/weaken air assaults through the placing of blast markers I feel that at 50 points, it's too easily avoided and too expensive to attach to every formation....I would have thought 45cm range would be a given (I'm completely ignorant of the fluff however so if there is a compelling reason please enlighten me)

Thanks for any responses!

Edit: should also add that I've actually used the stalker in all my playtest games.... not just blind theoryhammering here ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors Stalker AA Tank stats/cost?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:13 am 
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Not really understanding the 40K stats, I can't say whether a 45cm range is valid.
I agree that Stalkers aren't as effective AA platforms as most other units.

I am walking the tightrope of trying to balance the Iron Warriors (which are generally considered to be an above average toughness army to face) and get things right.
The Stalker is still a contentious unit for the Chaos armies as it does fill a (designed?) gap in the list.

Is there anyone with 40K knowledge that could comment? Would a range increase to 45cm be representative?

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors Stalker AA Tank stats/cost?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:10 am 
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personally I don't care what the 40k stats say... if it needs a range boost to justify its cost, it should get one :D game balance trumps all IMO

I think the AA gap is filled nicely by defilers and obliterators in the other lists, the only reason I bought it up here is due to its inclusion in the EC list.... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors Stalker AA Tank stats/cost?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:22 am 
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All good mate :)
I agree that game balance should win out.
I just don't want to give the stalker something it shouldn't have.
45cm does seem fine to me though.
Anyone else got a comment?

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors Stalker AA Tank stats/cost?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:11 pm 
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I've taken the stalker in all of my EC playtests and it does seem like a gimped but expensive hydra to me. It's more of a fm self defense weapon against ground attacks and air assaults than an area defense weapon. 2-3 stalkers seem easily avoided IMO. However, you get better initiative and strategy rating, and potential help from 2 types of chaos interceptor.

I'm torn, however. Perhaps chaos CSM AA shouldn't be 45 cm range for balance reasons. So while I'm underwhelmed by the stalker's performance, I don't have a strong opinion on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors Stalker AA Tank stats/cost?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:16 pm 
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I've never felt the 45cm range on the various cult defilers or obliterators is not justified or overpowered, they work pretty well, and most of the other chaos lists can bring the hellblades/talons too

I just felt that 30cm is very conservative and a much greater effect than the 15cm range drop might indicate....

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