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BLACK LEGION REVIEW - PROPOSED CHANGES - testing
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Author:  Steve54 [ Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  BLACK LEGION REVIEW - PROPOSED CHANGES - testing
This thread is for discussion of the proposed BL changes for the 2013 compendium.

Can we keep discussion focused on test games and actual experience of the changes

SPECIAL RULES
Faction rule deleted - therefore all units are 1+ initiative

Slaanesh, Khorne, Tzeentch + Nurgle formations the same daemons as before
Undivided formations now can summon daemons from any faction in any combination, however lesser daemons (apart from Daemonic beasts) cost 2 summoning points rather than 1. Any GD can also be summoned (cost as normal)
WHY Faction rule was unecessary, Undivided changes provide a reason to choose undivided with a greater choice of daemons though at a higher cost

LIST
- structure - Elite - You may have 1 BL elite formation per Black Legion Retinue selected
Support - You may have 2 BL support formations per Black Legion Retinue or Armoured Retinue chosen
So the Armor Co unlock support but not elite

- Move Armoured Co to Core section
WHY - To allow a wider range of builds for the list and also more activations. Core/elite/support changes to prevent possible pred+chosen spam

- Havoc formation added
WHY - another option with decimators going to allies, also provides a cheaper troop choice

- Move Decimators to WE+air section
WHY - Playing against a list where 7+ fearless WEs is possible isn't fun

- Terminators - drop extra units to 60pts
WHY Extra terminators are currently a little overpriced

- Warlord - increase cost to 50pts
WHY With the list being 1+ init across the board 50 brings it into line with SM SC


DAEMON SUMMONING
The basic summoning mechanic remains the same
- Daemonic Pact - stay at 25pts. For each Daemonic Pact purchased add 1 lesser daemon to the daemon pool. Extra lesser Daemons can be purchased as normal.
- Icon Bearer - reduced to 25pts
- Champion- stays at 50pts. The Champion augments summoning as before, in additon instead of augmenting the summoning of lesser daemons the Champion may be Sacrificed. If the unit is Sacrificed it uses its full possible 6 summoning points (in combination with a Daemonic Pact) to summon a Greater Daemon, the Greater Daemon is placed within 10cm of the Champion and the Champion unit is then permanently removed.
WHY The pact change makes using lesser daemons cheaper, the changes to the Champion make it automatic to summon a GD (via sacrifice) in a fluffy manner.

UNITS
- drop Obliterator to 75pts
WHY - the previous stats drop+points increase was too much

- drop Banelord to 800pts
WHY - THE banelord currently is a underperforming choice

- Helltalons drop to 225pts. AA shot drops to 30cm from 45cm, bombs gain IC
WHY - 45cm Intercepting shots don't work well, bombs improved to promote bomber use

- Lesser Daemons - all drop to 15pts
WHY To make daemon use cheaper

- Greater Daemons - drop to 50pts
- gain daemonic focus in notes
WHY With the changes in summoning reduces cost of GD+kit to summon it to 125pts, having auto-focus stops need for extra expense of icon

List with changes

Attachments:
black_legion_2012_dev (1).pdf [534.51 KiB]
Downloaded 599 times
Author:  LordotMilk [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - PROPOSED CHANGES - testing
Played a game with the experimental BL list today, against F-ERC Emperor's children.

My list is the end of the post.

I deployed with the refused flank strategy, and my opponent originally fell into the trap.

The game quickly became a nightmare for me , as I failed 3 assaults on my attack flank, despite BM preps, numbers superiority and support fire by both the Wheel and the Feral... Second turn was worse as I lost initiative, and failed my first two activations despite the SC reroll.

Concerning the list changes:

- Daemons were fine, I sacrificed my Champ to get the BoodThirster in, and this could still have swinged the game in my favor early turn 2, if I hadn't failed both my 2+ Init rolls.

- Didn't pick Decimators over the Wheel or the Feral. I can't imagine a time when I would... (starting to think a 250 point elite decimator would be the way to go. People would pick less of them.).

- Helltalons are pretty rubbish tbh. Without the 45 cm range on their AA, they basically have all the flaws of Marauder-Bombers, with a worse save and a worse barrage. (Also, the IC was the realm of the Firelord, which now becomes even more obsolete, but thats another debate). The fact that FERC helltalons have 30 cm range on one of their AA weps didnt help. With this lower range, they really need some kind of built in resilience (2DC preferably, 4+ save otherwise).

Incompertus, 2995 POINTS
Black Legion (NetEA v3.1 *UNDER DEVELOPMENT*)
==================================================

BLACK LEGION RETINUE [350]
8 Chaos Space Marines, (Chaos Undivided), Chaos Lord, Obliterator

BLACK LEGION RETINUE [350]
8 Chaos Space Marines, (Chaos Undivided), Chaos Warlord, Obliterator

BLACK LEGION RETINUE [275]
8 Chaos Space Marines, (Chaos Undivided), Chaos Lord,

CHAOS TERMINATORS [470]
(Khorne), Chaos Lord, 6 Chaos Terminator, Daemonic Pact, Chaos Champion

BLACK LEGION CHOSEN [170]
4 Chaos Space Marine Scouts, (Chaos Undivided), Daemonic Pact, 2 Rhinos

BLACK LEGION CHOSEN [170]
4 Chaos Space Marine Scouts, (Chaos Undivided), Daemonic Pact, 2 Rhinos

HELLBLADE FLIGHT [200]
3 Fighters, (Chaos Undivided)

HELLTALON FLIGHT [250]
2 Bombers, (Chaos Undivided)

FERAL TITAN [275]
(Chaos Undivided)

DEATH WHEEL SQUADRON [275]
(Chaos Undivided), Death Wheel

DAEMON POOL [155]
(Chaos Undivided), Greater Daemon, 10 Lesser Daemon
Author:  dptdexys [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - PROPOSED CHANGES - testing
Quote:
- Helltalons drop to 250pts. AA shot drops to 30cm from 45cm, bombs gain IC
WHY - 45cm Intercepting shots don't work well, bombs improved to promote bomber use



Should that be dropping the Helltalons to 225 as they are already 250.
Author:  LordotMilk [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - PROPOSED CHANGES - testing
dptdexys wrote:
Quote:
- Helltalons drop to 250pts. AA shot drops to 30cm from 45cm, bombs gain IC
WHY - 45cm Intercepting shots don't work well, bombs improved to promote bomber use



Should that be dropping the Helltalons to 225 as they are already 250.


Why not drop them to 150 with those stats?
Author:  GlynG [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - PROPOSED CHANGES - testing
generally approve of these.

With the lesser cost and availability to undivided I'd be tempted to take 4 Greater Demons and try to design a list around getting all 4 to Assault in the first turn, perhaps with Terminators or 5 Dreadlawed in Havoc formations. I won't get a chance to play epic for some time but thought I'd mention this possibility
Author:  LordotMilk [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - PROPOSED CHANGES - testing
Rug wrote:
GlynG wrote:
generally approve of these.

With the lesser cost and availability to undivided I'd be tempted to take 4 Greater Demons and try to design a list around getting all 4 to Assault in the first turn, perhaps with Terminators or 5 Dreadlawed in Havoc formations. I won't get a chance to play epic for some time but thought I'd mention this possibility


Like! Can't get more chaotic than that!


What's funny though is that it is now that daemons become interesting that the faction rule might come into play...
Author:  Steve54 [ Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - PROPOSED CHANGES - testing
Test last night

I took a foot retinue with oblit, mounted retinue, 2 x chosen in rhinos, 2 x raptors, 2 x havocs, 2 x armour (2 LR+2 preds each) hellblades, decimator + devastation. Pacts + a couple of

List worked well (even though it was unfortunately against BL as well)

Daemons+Pact - free daemon works well provides a discount and really makes it worth taking pacts+daemons

Havocs - have to keep an eye on these perhaps increase cost to 225. Performed well are good with daemons in assault but fragile

List - Allowing armour to unlock support choices really opened up choices and meant I wasn't tied to 3 retinues when list-building. With the addition of Havocs+viable daemons I don't think the list will have to rely on fast WEs. Dave took 2 ferals and I never felt at a disadvantage not having them.

Decimators - we both took one. IMO it is now easier to fit 1 or 2 in the list at the expense of ferals/DWs. Before you were choosing between decimator/chosen/terminators - I would always want 2 scout formations so for me it would be decimator or terminators or more probably neither. While 3 ferals+3 decimators could be taken (not my preference) and bring the issues of 6 fearless WEs.
Now you really need to choose the WE to suit your list - drop pod list I'd take ferals/DWs to move across the table fast to support the drop, field a list of ground pounders and you might want decimators to keep all in support of each other. With the list I took I decided I had 3 rhino formations, 3 armour formations and 2 raptors whichb I intended to move in a mutually supporting wave- the decimator suited this as it could double behind the bulk of the army turn 1 and then be in a position to sustain on targets threatening/or being threatended by the first wave and also give pause for thought to them being assaulted.

Champion - Dave used these with terminators to bring out a bloodthister. Both of us agreed we liked the way it worked both in fluff+gameplay. IMO it would make the GD not an every army selection but a least a viable selection.

Couple of thoughts
GD stats - should these be restatted to make them more focused+representative of thier faction? Ie at the moment most are a bit of everything (bar the bloodthirster)
Unidivided - Dave used some undivided formations and they seemed ok with access to all daemons (at extra cost) do they need their own GD?
Author:  kyussinchains [ Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - PROPOSED CHANGES - testing
I say no to the GD on undivided, fluff heresy and all that..... access to all daemons (even at greater cost) is enough of a bonus IMO......
Author:  Steve54 [ Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - PROPOSED CHANGES - testing
Do undivided not have GDs? Didn't realise that
Author:  Tiny-Tim [ Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - PROPOSED CHANGES - testing
Interesting report Steve, thanks. I'm watching this with a mind to jumping back onto the LatD once you have finished.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - PROPOSED CHANGES - testing
unless as part of some new GW money-making initiative they've introduced them, I'm pretty sure there is no undivided GD, the closest thing is an undivided daemon prince......
Author:  GlynG [ Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - PROPOSED CHANGES - testing
Kyussinchains is partially incorrect - there is no such thing as an undivided GD but undivided CSM can summon any of the four types e.g. the (undivided) CSM Word Bearers legion are well known for using large amounts of daemons in their armies. They use daemons and GDs of any of the gods, depending on their preference or situation. Undivided means they worship all the chaos gods and chaos generally, rather than dividing/focusing their attention on one god.

However IMO it would be appropriate to limit an undivided formation to only having a single god's daemons at one time for balance and background reasons.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - PROPOSED CHANGES - testing
Current Codex CSM has generic Greater Daemons. I have included them from the start in the Red Corsairs list.

FYI: The rumored new Codex has NO Daemons. That`s what allies are for.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - PROPOSED CHANGES - testing
well colour me educated, another reason to hate GW and the ever increasing homogeneity of their model range....
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