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Dual Decimators in a 3K list
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19898		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  SteveS [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Dual Decimators in a 3K list
Hi Guys,

I'm working on a 3K list for the BL. I'm fairly new to epic (only had 3 games) but i've got access to the models to play a pair of Decimator SHT's, but i'm wondering if its opening me up to problems...

My rough list is:

3 x Chaos Retinue (one with havoc detachment, others in rhinos, one with daemonpact)
1 x Chosen with daemonpact
1 x terminator (5 units) daemonpact
1 x decimator sqn (2 tanks)
1 x raptor cult (6 units)
1 x Feral Titan
1 x hellblade flight
7 x less daemon

idea was to garrison retinue with havocs and the chosen to control the centre of the table, terminators teleport where needed/most advantageous on turn 2/3.

Having the pair of Decimators makes them the BTS unit, and i'm concerned that as nice as they look, this will make them a juicy target for the opponent to want to neutralise, AND give them an objective to boot!

I'm also concerned that their slow movement and relatively short range will mean they are my most powerful formation is actually easy for my opponent to avoid.

Are they worth the risk to fit two into this list?

Steve S
Author:  PitFiend [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dual Decimators in a 3K list
Decimators are awesome. They aren't quick, but if you are careful with them, and use them as a counterpunch unit, they go through enemy infantry like a knife through butter. My favorite meal for them is marines tucked into cover around their Rhinos, or in hard cover, as the main gun ignores all the cover saves, the negatives to hit, and all the armour... They're also good for counter assault firefights, as their Reinforced Armour should minimise return damage.

I personally prefer having them as seperate formations, but that'll cost you your Chosen or Terminators. If you keep them together, they may be the BTS, but they're Fearless. Which means the opponent can break the formation, but it'll just fall back. It'll never be wiped out by extra blast markers or by being beaten in assault while broken.

Something you may need to watch out for, depending on your local meta, is air cover. You've got just the Hellblades that can take out enemy aircraft, which may not be an issue if your locals don't use many aircraft. Alternate to maybe a second pack of Hellblades, if you need more, you could squeeze in an Obliterator or two. If you split the Decimators, or bulk out a Retinue so it becomes the BTS, it's a sneaky trick to make sure the BTS Retinue includes at least one Obliterator, so it can't be wiped out by being broken, then having more blast markers applied to it, as the Oblit is Fearless.
Author:  frogbear [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dual Decimators in a 3K list
Split the Devastators. The acticavation is more important.

I would personally tone down the daemons but each to their own really. I just think the points could be better spent towards a Death Wheel or a Daemon Prince (yes, you may have to re-jig the points). This may mean less upgrades or a different choice of units

eg. replacing the extra Raptors or maybe even doing away with the whole Daemon Summoning saving you a whopping 215 points alone!

I would play your list first and then see what you like and dislike. The above are just my own views on tightening the list for a specific purpose :)
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dual Decimators in a 3K list
Dual Decimators as the BTS is going to be pretty tough for the opponent to get, barring Deathstrikes or other multi-TK weapons coming to bear. If they do go after them, that will often mean they have to get relatively close, which is to the Decimators' advantage.

I think you're fine on activations for a BL list.

As far as strategy, I don't think one havoc retinue and 4 scouts is going to be effective area denial. However, they can provide cover for the advancing Decimators. Once the Decimators are in place with them (maybe after a double move on turn 1), that would make for an effective area control element. The downside is that it will be delayed a turn while they meet up. The two slow formations can leapfrog forward together and squeeze a lot of territory. It just won't be a quick start, so patience is a virtue with that strategy.

That would leave your fast elements to either pincer (if you split them up) or to do a hammer/anvil (with one flank heavy on maneuver elements).

If you want a stronger area denial element (which I like to do), you could convert one of the Retinues to a second garrison retinue with Havocs or Noise Marines. You wouldn't need the Chosen for garrison, so you can drop that for the points and also free up an Elite slot to split the Decimators, keeping the total activation count the same. You'd also drop the Rhinos for the garrison formation, so you'd have a few more points to spare.

Personally, I like that kind of strategy with BL. That gives you a wall of shooty troops on Overwatch to start. Decimators could easily link up with them as described above. Depending on objective placement, you might even split the retinue garrisons for a longer line and more area denial, keeping the Rhino retinue as a reserve force to reinforce if the enemy tries to pick off one or the other.
Author:  Man of kent [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dual Decimators in a 3K list
I'd drop the demons to get a more activations personally.
Author:  frogbear [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dual Decimators in a 3K list
Man of kent wrote:
I'd drop the demons to get a more activations personally.


+1
Author:  SteveS [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dual Decimators in a 3K list
Thanks for the responses.

A Daemon prince and some oblits are definitely on the list to get, once i figure out which models i want to use, and what conversion work is required! (6mm scale converting = :'( )

I totally understand the wanting extra activations. My problem just now is being fresh to Epic i am slightly limited in model availability. Spliting the Decimators may require an army re-think that is beyond my current model collection (for now!) and my worry is i end up with one of my garrison formations being the BTS. Sounds like the double deci's being the BTS have some plus points though so will try them out together...

I didn't realise people didn't rate the daemons - i've found them useful in boosting smaller formations so far. I started re-writing the list without them, but on reflection it feels slightly wrong playing chaos without them. I think i'll keep them in for now, try a few games more and pay closer attention to what impact they actually play.

List re-jig

1 x retinue with havocs (garrison)
1 x retinue with noise marines MoS (garrison)
1 x retinue with 4 x rhino and supreme commander
2 x Decimator BTS
5 x Terminator DemonPact MoT
1 x Chosen retinue with 2 x rhino DemonPact MoS
5 x Raptor
1 x Feral Titan
1 x Hellblade flight
6 x lesser daemons

3k exactly

I can garrison the 2 big retinues forward in mutually supporting locations, while the chosen and rhino retinue can set up to either run a flank with raptor support, or split as required. Deci's to go straight down the middle linking up with garrisons.

Not totally sold on the Noise marines. Tried them once and just found myself wishing they were havocs. Will give them another go and if i don't feel any better about them they'll get a repaint as extra havocs!

Did consider chopping noise marines and daemons to fit a 2nd Feral in. But 2 x Decimators AND 2 x Feral Titans seemed quite unfriendly to play against, so resisted... for now.

steve S
Author:  frogbear [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dual Decimators in a 3K list
steve s

Play with the minis that you have and find the style of play that you like. You will definitely find the most enjoyment out of this alone.

One aspect of the game (activations) is such a factor that you will come to realise that most non-character upgrades are pretty much a waste of points. It is sad but that is just the way the game is. I would rather play the game with upgrades and house rules to lessen the effect of activations, but they are just that - house rules.

The points spent on Noise Marines could go towards a Daemon Prince for the Terminators (mega hard formation to beat), or another activation no matter how small.

Like you said, go with the minis you have. Playing a few games will really make you realise what you can then plan on for your future purchases (cash wise) in a more strategic manner. :)
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dual Decimators in a 3K list
Daemons - The way you are using them is not uncommon for BL lists. A handful of them will keep any Pact formation a real threat, even after it's been beaten up pretty well. As long as it can activate, it can mount a fairly serious assault. They are a good "activation multiplier" in that way (more below). Personally, I'd put the Termie daemon pact on the Raptors for that reason. The Termies are a pretty big hammer without the daemons, while the Raptors are more likely to benefit from the support.

Noise Marines - You have to count on using them aggressively to take advantage of their shorter range and FF. Try to position them so you have an alley-way of terrain to hop forward - 20-30cm from piece to piece, so you can double move and set up in new cover. Meanwhile, the Havoc retinue can worry more about setting up in a more static position with strong fields of fire. The retinues will still be in mutual support when you start and you'll shortly have the Decimators moving forward to fill in if the Noise retinue's maneuver opens up a gap in the line.

Activations - You'll see a LOT of talk about total activation count when it comes to strategy. Having more activations than the opponent gives strategic flexibility. More activations makes it easier to set up support fire for assaults, crossfire for ranged fire, potentially allows a string of uncontested activations near the end of a turn without retain penalties, and gives more formations to make a run for capturing/contesting objectives late in the game.

However, it's a far more subtle concept than the total numbers in the starting army. It's not the total activation count, but the total number of effective activations at a given point in time and/or place on the battlefield that matters.

As an example, a beat up formation of 1-2 Assault Marines is not good for much except grabbing objectives. It has no ranged fire, weak FF and not enough heft to mount an assault on its own even if it can reach CC. Even with a Chaplain on it, I'd count that as maybe half of a "real" activation because of its limited use. However, 1-2 Raptors with a Pact on the formation and some daemons in the pool can mount an assault on its own - more units to bear and at longer range. The Raptors remain a real activation due to their overall flexibility.

IMHO, anything under a 3:2 ratio is workable, e.g. if the enemy has 12 activations, you really need to have 8+ relatively tough activations. Typically, a count that much higher has lots of token activations that are fairly easily reduced (broken or so damaged they lose a lot of effect). You craft your strategy around maintaining your own and whittling theirs down and by the end of the game, the difference has disappeared.
Author:  frogbear [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dual Decimators in a 3K list
Quote:
It's not the total activation count, but the total number of effective activations at a given point in time and/or place on the battlefield that matters.


True, however situational.

I can use 1 'useless' activation to stand in front of and waste a 'beefy' formation's activation, while the 2nd 'useless' activation I bought secures an objective.

As stated, it is situational and meta game dependent so we are both correct. :)
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