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Musings on the World Eaters - Blood Rage
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=17919		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  frogbear [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:31 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - Blood Rage
Hi All

This is the 2nd area that I would like to fix up to help complete the World Eater list

As much as I have tested the list and shown people the current rule for Blood Rage and the negative aspects, I keep being advised that the 'always Charge' aspect is 'too powerful'. As I am looking to gain approval for the list, I am interested in attaining the rule that will get that approval.

My initial thought is to simplify the whole thing (KISS):

All Khornate units gain a +1 dice bonus to any Charge actions.

That's right, not just World Eaters but any Khorne army list should be able to qualify for the Blood Rage rule. This moves it from an "always Charge" rule to a Charge most times (1+ initiative being the consideration) except for;

- Retaining with a BM
- Using the Commander ability on a Retain
- Using the Commander ability with a BM present
- Using the Commander ability on a Retain and with a BM

I would expect that the lack of firepower in the list would be part of the 'give and take' element of this bonus. The other great thing is that it is simple, and does not break or introduce any further constraints on current rules.

So please vote and comment, as I am very interested in getting past this 'bugbear' in the list

Regards...
Author:  Honda [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:39 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - Blood Rage
So before I vote, is it your intention to (in the WoE list) now remove the Skull Lords upgrade? Doesn't that give Core formations +1 Init? I'm not against the concept of making them stronger in a charge, necessarily, but what behaviour are you trying codify?
Author:  Blish [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:30 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - Blood Rage
I have chosen the current as, I have had a few games against this list and one with.

I have never had or seen a issue with this rule during any of the battles.

:blues:
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:48 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - Blood Rage
Is that +1 Dice per stand (effectively CC EA+1) or 1 extra attack die per formation, or 3d6 pick the two highest in resolution?
[edit] Or, for that matter, roll two dice and pick the highest for initiative when attempting a charge action?[\edit]

SG
Author:  zombocom [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:53 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - Blood Rage
I believe he just meant a +1 bonus to engage action tests.
Author:  frogbear [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:54 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - Blood Rage
Quote: (Honda @ Feb. 13 2010, 11:39 )

So before I vote, is it your intention to (in the WoE list) now remove the Skull Lords upgrade? Doesn't that give Core formations +1 Init? I'm not against the concept of making them stronger in a charge, necessarily, but what behaviour are you trying codify?

I am happy with what we have, yet it does come up time and again so I thought I would put it out there

It has been stated that I should just simplify the whole thing. Taking out the Skull Lord Upgrade and just adding him to the unit of Berserkers does this. It then becomes a 1+ initiative army (apart from Navy elements and the Bloodgors).

It also increases the price of base berserkers which was something I was hoping to not do.

It appears looking out for Skull Lords is book keeping. Frankly I do not see it as an issue, (no skull Lord, then -1 Initiative), but I do not want to be one accused of never listening. So hence why it is up for public discussion and vote   :sleep:
Author:  frogbear [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:56 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - Blood Rage
Quote: (Spectrar Ghost @ Feb. 13 2010, 12:48 )

Is that +1 Dice per stand (effectively CC EA+1) or 1 extra attack die per formation, or 3d6 pick the two highest in resolution?
[edit] Or, for that matter, roll two dice and pick the highest for initiative when attempting a charge action?[\edit]

SG

I am lost with this one, but I will try and clarrify:

Currently initiative is 1+ for formations and 2+ if core formations do not have a Skull Lord (whether at the start or throughout the game).

The idea is to ignore the above and just state a bonus of +1 to the dice roll if the formation elects to perform a Charge Action. That's all.
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:02 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - Blood Rage
My feeling here is that these are berzerkers. Their first instinct is to charge into the enemy and hack them into little red bits. If they blunder a command within charge distance, they will charge as a default. Sure, it will be more disorganized (1 BM), but it is part of the mindset: "Blood for the blood god, skulls for the skull throne!" not "Gee, no one told us what to do. Wanna play Scrabble?"

SG
Author:  Steve54 [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:45 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - Blood Rage
You already know my views on this frogbear but I had one more comment based on your other thread in relation to this.

You have stated that you want the list to be a rounded list capable of performing in a variety of roles - drop, mechanised etc. IMO the current blood rage rule works against this. At the moment, with any list, you activate the spaceship and drop pod the units than have to retain to use them - with Blood rage this is now automatic 0 no risk at all. This also increases the power of terminators as again the risk is removed of BMs.

Making a list at the moment would primarily be judging what proportion of drop pods/teleporters to take.
Author:  frogbear [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:51 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - Blood Rage
Quote: (Steve54 @ Feb. 13 2010, 15:45 )

You already know my views on this frogbear but I had one more comment based on your other thread in relation to this.

Hence the thread   :laugh:   :agree:
Author:  BlackLegion [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - Blood Rage
I voted for the KISS solution for balance reasons (and because i proposed something similar for Marked Formations).
But the Engage on Hold i see as more fluffy.
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - Blood Rage
Quote: (Steve54 @ Feb. 13 2010, 06:45 )

You already know my views on this frogbear but I had one more comment based on your other thread in relation to this.

You have stated that you want the list to be a rounded list capable of performing in a variety of roles - drop, mechanised etc. IMO the current blood rage rule works against this. At the moment, with any list, you activate the spaceship and drop pod the units than have to retain to use them - with Blood rage this is now automatic 0 no risk at all. This also increases the power of terminators as again the risk is removed of BMs.

Making a list at the moment would primarily be judging what proportion of drop pods/teleporters to take.

I just don't see it.

With the SpaceShip/Drop-pod thing, the BloodRage is worse than the +1 to Charge. With +1 to Engage, only Overwatch (for a BM) forces a slim chance to fail on the retain.

With the Terminator concern, as it stands, you teleport in two Terminator Formations.
Neither Formation gains BM's.
+1 on Engage = Both automatically Engage, no penalties.
BM on Fail = Both automatically Engage, second formation has BM's going into combat.

One Formation has BM's.
+1 on Engage = Both automatically Engage (BM one first), One Formation has 1 BM.
BM on Fail = Both automatically Engage (BM one second), One Formation has 2 BM's.

Both Formations have BM's.
+1 on Engage = One Auto Engages with BM's, other fails on a 1.
BM on Fail = Both automatically Engage, both have BM's going into combat.

So in only the last situation is it really a difference. Counter this with the inability to Regroup on a Hold across the entire army, and their ability to remain effective after the initial close combat strike is hindered, and the auxillary shooting is fairly significantly weakened.

Morgan Vening
Author:  Honda [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - Blood Rage
Quote: 

So in only the last situation is it really a difference. Counter this with the inability to Regroup on a Hold across the entire army, and their ability to remain effective after the initial close combat strike is hindered, and the auxillary shooting is fairly significantly weakened.


So, why would one want to do that to the entire army?  :grin:
Author:  frogbear [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - Blood Rage
It is easy to look at the 'auto charge' (as we have it currently) and state that it is powerful

Only playing games with the rule and making forces with the increased points costs of a drop and teleport army will show how hard the game is to win on such tactics (especially with the inability to regroup on a failed action). I would like people to understand that it is not like we just made the rule up. We spent hours on it and play-tested games with it. The army does pay top dollar for a Drop/Teleport force as it should. Try not judge the effectiveness from the cost of the Core units alone.

My 2c

Insert compulsory Smiley Here ------>   :peace:   :grin:  :peace:
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