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Musings on the World Eaters - List Design
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Author:  frogbear [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:44 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - List Design
I thought I would open this thread to once and for all gain an understanding on what people and the NetEA want from a list for the World Eaters.

Now if it is not immediately obvious, I have stringently worked and playtested a list for the World Eaters for the past year. I have finally come up with a list that I am extremely happy with. It has been inferred that it holds elements of a 'kitchen sink syndrome' and that for World Eaters, it should be toned down to be "World Eaters" and not everything Khorne.

I qam happy therefore to discuss this and give examples and try and reach an understanding on what would actually get approved as a NetEA list. Before I get into that, I think it is important to bring up some basic history on the World Eaters as it currently stands, and show why there appears to be problems;

**********************
Timeline

Unknown - World Eaters cause the slaughter on Arrigata  (no discernable change from pre-heresy Legion other than aggression)

007.M31 - Istvaan III Assault  (no discernable change from pre-heresy Legion other than aggression)

014.M31 - Horus Heresy Assault on Earth - World Eaters in their full Old School Glory

021.M31 - Battle of Skalathrax (World Eaters cease to exist as a Legion)

444.M41 - Armaggeddon War - Angron appears with a Daemon World Army (no talk of World Eaters)*

544.M41 - Angron returns to Real Space


999.M41 - 13th Black Crusade - Defilers make an appearance

Unknown - Eclipsion Prime - Akraghar "of the World Eaters" rides Slaughterfiend


*891.M41 - Alternative date for Armaggeddon War where World Eater Marines are mentioned
**********************

So as you can see there are a few points to note about the World Eaters:

1. They only existed as a Traitor 'Legion' for 14 years (Istvaan to Skalathrax)
2. Due to typical GW re-writes, it is unclear whether Angron appeared with "World Eaters" or a Daemon World force at Armageddon

Due to the above, it is conceivable that the World Eater list exists in 4 parts:

1. Pre Heresy - Istvaan
2. High Heresy - Assault on Earth
3. Eye of Terror - Up until Skalathrax (Still a Legion with a strong Marine/Daemon influence)
4. Post Skalathrax - 13th Black Crusade (Individual Warbands, Daemon Worlds, Beastmen etc)


- I think it is safe to state that option 1 is not what people want from their Traitor World Eater list.
- Option 2 allows for the Daemon Assault Engines (Old School) yet no (Defiler Engine) setups
- Option 3 is very much the same as 2 so can be ignored  
- Option 4 is where we would see an entire list (much as we have made with V2.4) with maybe the influence of Daemon Assault Engines phased out

So High Heresy or 13th Crusade?


High Heresy List

Core
- Berserkers
- Terminators
- Bikes
- Chosen

Support
- Daemon Assault Engines
- Khorne Juggernauts

Upgrades
- Dreadnoughts / Blood Slaughterers
- Assault Pods
- Daemonic Pact
- Favoured of Khorne
- Keeper of Chains / Keeper of Skulls
- Predators
- Transports
- Teleport

Navy
- Hellblades
- Helltalons
- Cruiser
- Battle Barge

Titans / War Engines
- Cerberus
- Ravager
- Banelord
- Lord of Battles



Post Skalathrax List

Core
- Berserkers
- Terminators
- Bikes
- Chosen

Support
- Defiler Engines
- Khorne Juggernauts
- Bloodpack
- Beastmen

Upgrades
- Defilers
- Dreadnoughts / Blood Slaughterers
- Assault Pods
- Daemonic Pact
- Favoured of Khorne
- Keeper of Chains / Keeper of Skulls
- Predators
- Transports
- Teleport

Navy
- Hellblades
- Helltalons
- Harbinger
- Cruiser
- Battle Barge

Titans / War Engines
- Cerberus
- Ravager
- Banelord
- Lord of Battles
- Scorpions
- Apocalypse Engines (??)



I do not know if I have it all included, yet as you can see, with the various 'showings' of the World Eaters, it is very hard to distinguish a Khorne list from the World Eater list as in effect they overlap dramatically. The 'Kitchen Sink syndrome' is almost necessary to make sure that one is representing the full aspect of the World Eaters.

I would love people to give their opinions, suggestions and examples, as after a year of solid work on the list, I really would like to move this towards a conclusion, and list design is where I am starting.

Regards.   :D
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:49 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - List Design
Quote: 

I thought I would open this thread to once and for all gain an understanding on what people and the NetEA want from a list for the World Eaters.


One list, not two, please.
Author:  frogbear [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:35 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - List Design
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 13 2010, 09:49 )

One list, not two, please.

Definately, I agree.

But what should stay and what should go?
Author:  Honda [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:15 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - List Design
Agree on the one list, but I think that is what you were proposing.

As far as composition goes, I'd like to offer this possibility...

Post Skalathrax List

Core
- Berserkers
- Terminators
- Bikes Delete
- Chosen Delete

Support
- Defiler Engines
- Khorne Juggernauts Potential to move to Core
- Bloodpack
- Beastmen
- Daemonic Support I think the infantry are going to need help from direct fire artillery

Upgrades
- Defilers Add the Stalker
- Dreadnoughts / Blood Slaughterers
- Assault Pods
- Daemonic Pact Delete
- Favoured of Khorne
- Keeper of Chains / Keeper of Skulls
- Predators Delete
- Transports
- Teleport

Navy
- Hellblades Delete
- Helltalons
- Harbinger Delete
- Cruiser
- Battle Barge

Titans / War Engines
- Cerberus
- Ravager
- Banelord
- Lord of Battles Delete
- Scorpions
- Apocalypse Engines (??)

So, first off, the theme that could be adopted is more of an aggregation of warbands, with the focus on carnage and less on say "strategery". They are a blight upon the landscape because nothing is left after their passing. The possess extreme engines of war because of their capabilities to wrought mass destruction. They are a nuclear bomb in red armor.

Suggested changes:

Core
Perhaps the Bloodgors could show up here, but I dropped the other two because, let's face it, all Chaos lists have bikes (which I detest as a concept) and Chosen. This is going back a version or two in the 40K codex, but the Chosen were either terminators or super veterans. So make them the focus of this part of the list.

Support
Turn these choices into selections that support the warband infantry

Upgrades
Facilitate warband building, somewhat self-efficient, not necessarily dependent on the interaction of other warbands, though loose coordination would be encouraged. I dropped the Daemon pact in part to separate the WoE from the Daemon Legions, but also to focus on the mortal warriors of Khorne. I dropped Preds because, again, all Chaos lists have them. I would use the Defilers and derivitives as the core vehicle types. I would keep all the transport options though to allow for some degree of mechanization.

Navy
It takes a lot of logistics and support to maintain an air force. So, I would remove things that represent large logistical tails and take those things that support the "carnage" theme. What I've proposed is just my idea, but it seems like a warband of "interdictors" is somewhat consistent.

Titan / War Engines
I'd drop the Lord of Battles. It's present in the LatD and even though it is very "Khorne-ish", I think the WoE have better and more flavorful choices...like the Brass Scorpion.

So that's my two yen...it's what I am building now with the existing version as that fits my "vision" within your vision.

Go ahead. Turn the Cannon of Khorne on me and blow me away  :)
Author:  frogbear [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:14 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - List Design
Quote: (Honda @ Feb. 13 2010, 12:15 )

Go ahead. Turn the Cannon of Khorne on me and blow me away  :)

Not at all dude. If I did that I would do you and myself a disservice and would never get support in the future. So I really appreciate the input


Quote: 

Agree on the one list,


:agree:


Quote: 

Core
Perhaps the Bloodgors could show up here, but I dropped the other two because, let's face it, all Chaos lists have bikes (which I detest as a concept) and Chosen. This is going back a version or two in the 40K codex, but the Chosen were either terminators or super veterans. So make them the focus of this part of the list.


Can I just clarify:

Chosen: Are you advising the full removal of the Jump Pack/Scout element that assists troops to get into CC? (They are also Daemons as signified by the Invulnerable). Discuss more when I am sure you know what you are advising removing...  


Quote: 

Support
Turn these choices into selections that support the warband infantry


I see the daemonic Support Engines. Do you envision then removing the Daemonic Assault Engines (and models) such as the Tower of Skulls etc or was it an oversight?


Quote: 

Upgrades
Facilitate warband building, somewhat self-efficient, not necessarily dependent on the interaction of other warbands, though loose coordination would be encouraged. I dropped the Daemon pact in part to separate the WoE from the Daemon Legions, but also to focus on the mortal warriors of Khorne. I dropped Preds because, again, all Chaos lists have them. I would use the Defilers and derivitives as the core vehicle types. I would keep all the transport options though to allow for some degree of mechanization.


No Predators?!!   :oo:   Wow!. I never saw that one coming. They do dish out AT hits for an army that may not otherwise be able to effectively make AT shots. As for the dropping of Daemons, I think TRC will have an opinion on that as he believes World Eaters are more Daemonic that most other showings of later Khorne Warbands. I will place all these aside for consideration and discussion as well - nothing is ignored.

..and that Stalker. Does that one need it's own thread?   :laugh:


Quote: 

Navy
It takes a lot of logistics and support to maintain an air force. So, I would remove things that represent large logistical tails and take those things that support the "carnage" theme. What I've proposed is just my idea, but it seems like a warband of "interdictors" is somewhat consistent.


That is a well thought out view. It was my initial view last year (back in February I think), and then I came to understand in playtests that the army was very 1-dimensional. Like I stated, nothing is ignored however. Noted.



Quote: 

Titan / War Engines
I'd drop the Lord of Battles. It's present in the LatD and even though it is very "Khorne-ish", I think the WoE have better and more flavorful choices...like the Brass Scorpion.



Which Scorpion is appropriate?
Author:  frogbear [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:20 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - List Design
I forgot to add this to the initial post so apologies:

One other important point to consider is that I am not interested in making a list that is one dimensional. We have enough of them that exist that we do not need another one.

It is very easy to make a World Eater drop Force. I am looking for a list design that encourages Ground and Drop forces. No-one likes to play against multi-Thunderhawk or full 3rd turn drop forces. So please keep that in mind.

Some great feedback I have recieved just recently was from LeanonRuss who stated (apologies if I misquote):

"I play alot of games against your World Eaters, and I don't mind, because you always take a different force and do not keep playing the same thing all the time"

This tells me I am on the right track, so now I am looking for that middle ground    :devil:
Author:  Blish [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:15 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - List Design
I guess if you are going to do High Heresy - Assault on Earth you could include Beastmen and Mutants as they did take place on the assault/ Siege of the Emperors Palace.

Just an idea.
Author:  frogbear [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:38 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - List Design
Quote: (Blish @ Feb. 13 2010, 14:15 )

I guess if you are going to do High Heresy - Assault on Earth you could include Beastmen and Mutants as they did take place on the assault/ Siege of the Emperors Palace.

More than a few people have advised me that the Bloodgors was a welcome addition. I just have to be aware of what the reasons against them are as well.

I am all for the fans. If they want it, then why not, as long as it keeps game balance. And that is one of the issues that has been brought to my attention. Hence this thread as well.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - List Design
Quote: (frogbear @ Feb. 13 2010, 00:44 )

Due to the above, it is conceivable that the World Eater list exists in 4 parts:

1. Pre Heresy - Istvaan
2. High Heresy - Assault on Earth
3. Eye of Terror - Up until Skalathrax (Still a Legion with a strong Marine/Daemon influence)
4. Post Skalathrax - 13th Black Crusade (Individual Warbands, Daemon Worlds, Beastmen etc)


- Option 4 is where we would see an entire list (much as we have made with V2.4) with maybe the influence of Daemon Assault Engines phased out

Epic being set in "the modern era" I would prefer the World Eaters list to also be set in the current end of the timeline.

Ie: Number 4.


Quote: 

Post Skalathrax List

Core
- Berserkers
- Terminators
- Bikes
- Chosen

Support
- Defiler Engines
- Khorne Juggernauts
- Bloodpack
- Beastmen

Upgrades
- Defilers
- Dreadnoughts / Blood Slaughterers
- Assault Pods
- Daemonic Pact
- Favoured of Khorne
- Keeper of Chains / Keeper of Skulls
- Predators
- Transports
- Teleport

Navy
- Hellblades
- Helltalons
- Harbinger
- Cruiser
- Battle Barge

Titans / War Engines
- Cerberus
- Ravager
- Banelord
- Lord of Battles
- Scorpions
- Apocalypse Engines (??)



I would suggest adopting the new army list structure akin to the one given in the NetEA Black Legion army list:



Core: (unlimited)
- Berserkers

Support: (2 per core)
- Bikes
- Defiler Engines
- Bloodpack DELETE (incorporate into Defiler Engines formation)
- Beastmen DELETE (this is the WORLD EATERS CHAOS SPACE MARINES list, not a generic KHORNE list)
- Berserker Raptors ADD (just because they don't make models for Warhammer 40,000...)

Elites: (1 per core)
- Terminators
- Chosen
- Khorne Juggernauts
- Lord of Battles
- Scorpions

Upgrades
- Defilers
- Dreadnoughts / Blood Slaughterers
- Assault Pods
- Daemonic Pact
- Favoured of Khorne
- Keeper of Chains / Keeper of Skulls
- Predators
- Transports
- Teleport

Navy
- Hellblades
- Helltalons
- Harbinger
- Cruiser
- Battle Barge

Titans
- Cerberus MODIFY (Bident is worth much more than the PBG. Try TK(1) )
- Ravager
- Banelord
- Apocalypse Engines NO (the list as given has 6 daemon engines already)
Author:  Honda [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - List Design
Quote: 


Quote: 



Core
Perhaps the Bloodgors could show up here, but I dropped the other two because, let's face it, all Chaos lists have bikes (which I detest as a concept) and Chosen. This is going back a version or two in the 40K codex, but the Chosen were either terminators or super veterans. So make them the focus of this part of the list.


Can I just clarify:

Chosen: Are you advising the full removal of the Jump Pack/Scout element that assists troops to get into CC? (They are also Daemons as signified by the Invulnerable). Discuss more when I am sure you know what you are advising removing...  


Again, to be consistent with the "carnage" theme, I envision the WoE not scouting out where the best opportunities
are, but landing and then moving to where the greatest potential for carnage is possible. I think the
a natural example might be a plague of locusts.

Jump packs are an excellent ability for getting into carnage sooner, but there doesn't seem to be much
support fluff-wise for this ability later in the history of the WoE.

So if the proposal isn't too drastic (and it may be), then there would be: Berzerkers, Chosen
as Terminators, Bloodgors, and then possibly lesser warband remnants who have not yet been elevated to
Berzerker or Terminator "status".

Quote: 


I see the daemonic Support Engines. Do you envision then removing the Daemonic Assault Engines
(and models) such as the Tower of Skulls etc or was it an oversight?


It was my intent, and again this might be too drastic of a change from your perspective, to drop the
iconic older assault engines. They are in LatD, (BL?) and would be duplicative. The later lists would
use Defiler variants, Blood Slaughters, etc., though the assault engines could be used as counts as. I'm
not trying to hose everyone's army over as far as what is in their collection, just refine what constitutes
the WoE.


Quote: 


No Predators?!! Wow!. I never saw that one coming. They do dish out AT hits for an army that may not
otherwise be able to effectively make AT shots. As for the dropping of Daemons, I think TRC will have
an opinion on that as he believes World Eaters are more Daemonic that most other showings of later
Khorne Warbands. I will place all these aside for consideration and discussion as well - nothing is
ignored.


Yes, no Predators. Again, everyone has them, but also it seems to me to be much more thematic that
enemy armor is engaged vs. shot at range, suppressed via barrages vs. pinpoint attacks. Again, I see
the WoE as a bludgeon, not a rapier.

Also, with the Transport upgrade, LR's are available for AT work, but again are part of the warband.

Quote: 


..and that Stalker. Does that one need it's own thread?


Stalkers: I like the concept, especially the modeling possibilities of a Defiler body armed with 2 x
twin auto-cannons. Since I am advocating the removal of the Hellblades and the reasonable expectation of
competent air assets, it seems natural to me to open up the AA slot by including either the Stalker or
a Khornate version of the Desecrator, which if left up to my own devices, would still be modeled on a
Defiler chassis. Others could put something similarly armed on a rhino chassis. Anyway, I see AA as
a ground based asset, not air for the WoE.

Quote: 


That is a well thought out view. It was my initial view last year (back in February I think), and then
I came to understand in playtests that the army was very 1-dimensional. Like I stated, nothing is
ignored however. Noted.


Fair enough. As stated earlier, I'm just sharing my vision within your vision. As for the most part, I
am able to build my vision within the list, I am for the most part content.

For example, my current list I am building the army to is:

1 Berzerkers Retinue 8 x Berserkers 225
Onslaught 4 x Slaughterers 200
Skull Lord 1 x Skull Lord 50

2 Berzerkers Retinue 5 x Berserkers 225
Bloodpack 3 x Slaughterfiends 150
Assault Walkers 2 x Defilers 150
Skull Lord 1 x Skull Lord 50

3 Chosen (Jump) 1 x Lord Upgrade, 4 x Chosen 200

4 Terminator Retinue 1 x Lord Upgrade, 5 x Terminators 500
Scorpion King 1 x Dprince 100
Teleport Teleport 50

5 Juggers 5 x Juggernauts 250

6 Brass Scorpions 2 x Brass Scorpion 350

7 Support Weapons 4 x Doomblasters 275

8 Hell Talon Squadron 2 x Hell Talons 200

* Note that I still have the jump Chosen in there

So 8 activations, I still have 25 pts I need to spend somewhere. If I dropped the Chosen, I'd
probably try to pick up some Bloodgors.

Also, I'm not trying to get everyone to play how I play, just show my perspective. This is just
one perspective. I'd still want to be able to take Space assets, do the Dreadclaw tango, take
Titan assets, etc.

I too, do not want a one dimensional list. I just think that given where the list is from a
developmental stage, you have the opportunity to craft it in a way that gives it its own
identity vs. a red Chaos army.

Now, before your blood pressure goes up over the last statement, I am in NO way trying to infer
that your list is "red" Chaos. It is not. It is a very cool list and very flavorful. I like it a
lot. I'm investing a significant amount of time and resources to build an army with your
list.

I'm just trying to let you see your list through my eyes.

Quote: 


Which Scorpion is appropriate?


DC3 all the way baby! I'm not sure what the smaller, more vulnerable version gets you, especially if the
assault engines are left in. They are sort of duplicative to my way of thinking at this time. Not
completely, but in some ways.


Quote: 


I think TRC will have an opinion on that as he believes World Eaters are more Daemonic that most
other showings of later Khorne Warbands.


This is Chaos, right? We're bound to have differing opinions. It's not like the Tau where everyone
is united in their perspective to produce a focused and consistent view. LOL.

I think where TRC and my perspectives may diverge has to do with historical exposure to Chaos. In the
early days of fluff, the mortal warriors were more closely integrated with the daemonic forces. Without
going into all the potential (e.g. business) reasons why GW has changed their tack on this, the
daemonic have been segregated from the mortal. So my perspective on that is trying to allow for that.

Doesn't mean that you have to adopt that perspective, which I know you know, I'm just saying that I
acknowledge it and try to reflect that in my playstyle and list creation.

So, hopefully that helps clarify some of the thoughts I was quickly trying to get down and perhaps it
will provide some food for thought.

Either way, I'm still building my army   :grin:

Cheers,
Author:  frogbear [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - List Design
Quote: 

4 Terminator Retinue 1 x Lord Upgrade, 5 x Terminators 500
Scorpion King 1 x Dprince 100
Teleport Teleport 50



:laugh:
Author:  Honda [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - List Design
You lost me, did I do something wrong?
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:41 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - List Design
No not at all. Just that Scorpion King Teleporting makes me laugh.  :;):
Author:  Honda [ Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:27 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - List Design
Well, yeah. :down:

Realistically, I'm guessing they'd probably have to kick him out the back of a C-130 and tell everyone on the ground to close their eyes until they hear a loud noise.
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:54 am ]
Post subject:  Musings on the World Eaters - List Design
*ROFL*    :agree:
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