Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Jan. 02 2010, 20:48 )
Quote:
yes thats the official explanation. Given from Jervis Johnson iirc
Gav Thorpe I think, not that it matters worth a mild curse.
Whoever
I find it odd, too.
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| A Berserker is a Berserker is a... http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=17568 |
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| Author: | Honda [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A Berserker is a Berserker is a... |
I noticed that the Berserkers in the Red Corsairs have a CC2+ (for 6 units), but in the World Eaters they are CC3+ (for 8 units). I don't have access to the Black Legion list right now, but is there going to be an agreement across the lists on what this value should be? |
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| Author: | Apocolocyntosis [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A Berserker is a Berserker is a... |
The WE berserkers get an extra CC attack, so 2 at 3+ instead of 1 at 2+. I think frogbear said somewhere that this is because the WE berserkers are better than regular CSM berserkers and so are meant to be different/better. |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A Berserker is a Berserker is a... |
Red Corsairs use the stats for the Black Legion Khorne Berzerkers. I explain the differences in the stats so that all non-World Eater Khoren Berzerkers are only Khorne Berzerkers for a relatively short time in comparison to World Eaters Khorne Berzerkers who are Khorne Berzerkers since the Horus Heresy. World Eaters Khorne Berzerkers are more experienced in being absolute Khorne nutters than their younger Black Legion brethren. Actually only the World Eaters and the Black Legion have Cult Marines such as the Khorne Berzerkers as recruits of their own Legion (yes thats the official explanation. Given from Jervis Johnson iirc). Any other Traitor Legion, Renegate Chapter CSM, etc have Cult Marines only as allied warbands from the parent (Cult) Legion or the Black Legion. So the Cult Marines of the Red Corsairs are mainly allied warbands from the Black Legion. |
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| Author: | Honda [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A Berserker is a Berserker is a... |
Whooookay. So use as is. Got it. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A Berserker is a Berserker is a... |
Quote: yes thats the official explanation. Given from Jervis Johnson iirc Gav Thorpe I think, not that it matters worth a mild curse. |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A Berserker is a Berserker is a... |
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Jan. 02 2010, 20:48 ) Quote: yes thats the official explanation. Given from Jervis Johnson iirc Gav Thorpe I think, not that it matters worth a mild curse. Whoever I find it odd, too. |
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| Author: | Morgan Vening [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A Berserker is a Berserker is a... |
Quote: (Apocolocyntosis @ Jan. 02 2010, 19:22 ) The WE berserkers get an extra CC attack, so 2 at 3+ instead of 1 at 2+. I think frogbear said somewhere that this is because the WE berserkers are better than regular CSM berserkers and so are meant to be different/better. That's the fluff rationale, but the mechanical reason is because an all-fearless army sucks. The nature of Fearless* led to the adoption of Hena's Stubborn. This made them inferior to the existing ones, and so an increase was required. Armour didn't make sense, FF was out, CC was already at 2+, and ranged weapons not so much. So they got an additional attack. A drop to 3+ was necessary to stop them being too good. * Fearless isn't too bad when you've got non-Fearless in the formation. But it's absolutely horrible when the opponent has nothing but, especially decently armored CC specialists that rally on a 4+. Losing an assault can actually put them in a better position than winning. Morgan Vening |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A Berserker is a Berserker is a... |
2 attack at 3+ is an improvement over 1 attack at 2+. |
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| Author: | Apocolocyntosis [ Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A Berserker is a Berserker is a... |
Quote: . A drop to 3+ was necessary to stop them being too good. Quote: 2 attack at 3+ is an improvement over 1 attack at 2+. Indeed, 89% chance to land one hit per stand or 45% to land two compared to the regular berseker's 83% chance for one hit. So its an improvement without making them too good. |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Sun Jan 03, 2010 12:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | A Berserker is a Berserker is a... |
First of, the BL list has Khorne Berserkers, not World Eater Berserkers. As stated above we had to make them better at CC while removing the Fearless. The reality of the cult marines in the BL list is that making a force out of them is hard due to the all fearless aspect. Now of interesting note is that the BL list only has Thousand Sons as one of the 4 main traitor legion aspects. All others (Slaanesh, Nurgle, and Khorne) are generic. Only the Thousand Sons are named. That gives future ACs the ability to create one of the traitor legions without having to use the generics. As for the Thousand Sons, they can use the Fearless as the automatons are easier to work around with the Fearless aspect. I know I was always going to find this as a challenge to get past people, but when you seperate Khorne berserkers from the World Eater Berserkers, you will see that they can both co-exist  Cheers. 
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| Author: | Honda [ Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | A Berserker is a Berserker is a... |
Quote: I know I was always going to find this as a challenge to get past people, but when you seperate Khorne berserkers from the World Eater Berserkers, you will see that they can both co-exist No worries FB. I didn't realize that there had been a concerted effort to differentiate the crazies. |
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| Author: | Dobbsy [ Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | A Berserker is a Berserker is a... |
I agree with Frogbear that the Khorne zerkers are generic, whereas the WE zerkers are above them in their abilities...so then you add my version to the mix. In my list I have them statted at a 2+ single attack, but they're not fearless - they're just close to it. I've always felt that the special rules for them e.g how they act on the table top, was the key difference. |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | A Berserker is a Berserker is a... |
Quote: (Hena @ Jan. 03 2010, 14:36 ) I disagree with this split So I see nothing has changed and never will then..... All in good jest Hena, all in good jest 
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