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Stalker
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=17517		 Page 1 of 9
Author:  Steve54 [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:29 am ]
Post subject:  Stalker
In the BL proposals the Stalker is included as a AA vehicle.

Even with the Oblit keeping AA it provides the BL with a mobile AA unit, against that it is a non-canon unit and will alter the way BL operate.
Author:  firestorm40k [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Stalker
Hmmm, interesting question.  When I've played with my Iron Warriors (using the BL list) I've found that, between 4 Obliterator units distributed between two formations, and 2 formations of Hell Talons, in a 3,000 point list that's pretty sufficient.

On the other hand, the Red Corsairs list they get the Choas Hunter, which gives them an extra option.

I guess the question is, do you stick to the fluff that says the Red Corairs get their Hunter because they're recently turned to Chaos, whereas BL don't get the extra option because the technology wasn't around at the time of the Heresy?  Or do you just ignore it?

Personally, I think the BL can cope without it.
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Stalker
I personally think it has a place, as long as it has fluff behind it. If it does not have the official GW fluff, then a core list should not have such an item IMO.
Author:  Man of kent [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Stalker
A mild point to make is that I've used the wierd 'scanner' head off of the 40k scale obliterator to put on top of my epic Stalker.
R>
Author:  hello_dave [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Stalker
I don't think the Stalker is needed

Most of the core lists IG, Orks, Marines, not the Eldar (obviously, they simply must have it better than everybody else ;) ) have one AA unit, having the option to have mobile AA if I want an armoured Co or Rhino riding Retinue would be nice, but then I would just load up a garrisoning Retinue with Oblits (slow but better AA) when it suits me.

I think that if the Obliterators are going to keep their AA abilities then no other Anti-Aircraft units should be added to the list, Hell Blades can cover forward units.
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Stalker
You know if you took out all the Flak abilities from the list, the Hellblades being the only AA defence may be worth their current points. :oops:

Just putting it out there....
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Stalker
Quote: (frogbear @ Dec. 27 2009, 12:03 )

You know if you took out all the Flak abilities from the list, the Hellblades being the only AA defence may be worth their current points. :oops:

Just putting it out there....

That's not a very cogent argument.

It's like the 0-1 restriction argument. It doesn't make a unit balanced, it just masks the initial problem.

Personally, I'd rather see the Stalker (much as I dislike it) take the role from the Obliterators. Fearless Teleporting Terminators with AA don't do it for me. They're like donuts.

Morgan Vening
- "Is there anything they can't do?"
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Stalker
Quote: (Morgan Vening @ Dec. 27 2009, 21:19 )

That's not a very cogent argument.

:grin: Not an argument, just an idea

See, you let something free, and people stomp on it. My poor little caterpillar never had a chance   :down:
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Stalker
Having discussed this with Jervis, he thought that the absence of an 'organic' AA unit was a failing of the list.

'They must have had something (for AA before they turned to Chaos' he said... and then he proposed either they get the Hunter or they get a new pre-heresy design.

So I'm in favour of seeing a Rhino based AA gun for the Black Legion army list.
Author:  Dave [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Stalker
Agreed, they would have had something pre-heresy. I like its premise and its not so amazing stats.

So what if there's no fluff behind it? Is there fluff behind the Hunter outside of of the EA book? That's what Epic did once upon a time, make up new vehicles for the 40k universe.
Author:  Chroma [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Stalker
Quote: (Dave @ Dec. 27 2009, 14:55 )

Agreed, they would have had something pre-heresy. I like its premise and its not so amazing stats.

Wouldn't their dedicated AA have been actual aircraft?  

Back in the day, Marines flew planes instead of relying on Imperial Navy support, I believe.

Decent aircraft options should cover this for Black Legion, at least.
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Stalker
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 27 2009, 22:41 )

Having discussed this with Jervis, he thought that the absence of an 'organic' AA unit was a failing of the list.

'They must have had something (for AA before they turned to Chaos' he said... and then he proposed either they get the Hunter or they get a new pre-heresy design.

Did 'Jervis' happen to mention in what fluff book from the Heresy days that AA is mentioned anywhere? Just curious....

They could always have stolen technology

I cannot understand why AA is not available to the 500+ point Titan class. It would make sense to me rather than making up a new model.


Quote: 

So what if there's no fluff behind it? Is there fluff behind the Hunter outside of of the EA book? That's what Epic did once upon a time, make up new vehicles for the 40k universe.


Because it goes against how Marines operated before the pre-heresy. Any fluff you will see are Marines coming in where there is either first contact, or where the IG have failed. They do not stick around for protracted combats. They do the job and then move on after the IG have set up operations. They are the ones with the planes. They are the ones attacking. The onlyt time that I know fluff wise that Marines get attacked is when they attack each other (Prospero being the main one). Otherwise, the dedicated AA dows not fit in with the BL who attack, not defend. If they receive AA from allies, then that is fine. But a dedicated Marine AA just does not fit in the vein of Blitzkrieg.


Either way, I will play with what is given.
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Stalker
Quote: (Chroma @ Dec. 28 2009, 01:24 )

Wouldn't their dedicated AA have been actual aircraft?  

Finally someone who has stated something that I have been preaching for 6 months now!   :grin:
Author:  BlackLegion [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Stalker
The only mentioned Chaos Space Marine ground-AA i know of are mentioned in the novel "Dark Apostle". They are described as multi-legged Daemon Engines who spew flames (or flaming projectiles) at incoming aircrafts.

To me this sounds like a Defiler variant not a Rhino variant.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Stalker
Quote: (Dave @ Dec. 27 2009, 14:55 )

Is there fluff behind the Hunter outside of of the EA book?

It is briefly mentioned in Imperial Armour II in the section on the Hyperios AA vehicle, as an AA vehicle used by Space Marine Chapters.


Quote: (Chroma @ Dec. 27 2009, 16:24 )

Back in the day, Marines flew planes instead of relying on Imperial Navy support, I believe.

I've read all of the Horus Heresy books so far (circa 10 books?), as well as the Horus Heresy sourcebooks.

Not a single mention of Marines flying aircraft other than Thunderhawks and Stormbirds.

I assume Marines flying aircraft has been written out of the background, along with Marines that ride Dinosaurs.  :)


Quote: (frogbear @ Dec. 27 2009, 20:16 )

Did 'Jervis' happen to mention in what fluff book from the Heresy days that AA is mentioned anywhere?

No, he wasn't refering to any currently-written book ... it was more mentioned in the context of ''noone here at the GW studio has gotten around to thinking about Chaos AA, but they must surely have had some kind of ground-based AA vehicle during the days of the Heresy, either the Hunter or the Hyperios or something older''.

He also thought that it is likely that more 'modern' Chaos armies could also make use of an AA Defiler variant.

The topic came up because I noted that Obliterators being the source of AA for the list were causing some concerns. His suggestions were unprompted, yet oddly mirror the development work that's gone on here... maybe he watches us.  :sulk:


'Jervis' is the guy who wrote the game of course. I was lucky enough to have a few meetings with him last year, and one of the things we discussed was Epic's half-complete-yet-official Chaos army lists.
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