Greater Daemon

Reduce to 7 Summoning Points

WHY
At 8 SP it was rarely used as, even with the large points cost needed to summon it - pact, icon, champion, greater daemon, it was still a gamble whether you would roll high enough to summon it.

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...and point drop to 75 points I presume?

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I always add a GD to my Khorne army and they are a bit hit and miss...

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So is it safe to assume that whatever is decided for the BL, will them be migrated over to other Chaos lists, e.g. Red Corsairs?

The concern would be in ensuring that if there are options to the various formations that are present in other lists, but not the BL that an unnecessary advantage might get inherited.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Red Corsairs already use a different Greater Daemon (the 'generic' less powerful Greater Daemon, as they are only recent Chaos converts), with its own unique summoning value.

Whilst most changes will be mapped across, this one won't greatly affect the Red Corsairs.

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With the feedback from Hena, I would suggest the following:

Greater Daemon costs: 75 points across all lists

Sumnmoning Costs
LotD: 8 points
BL: 8 points
All other cult specific lists: 7 points

I do not see why BL should have it's cake and eat it too. Something has to be left for the cult specific lists...

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For reference, 7 points makes a big difference in the likelihood of failing to summon on 4d3 - from about 40% to about 20%.

I agree they are rarely seen.  I think the chance of failure more than offsets the benefits of getting a DC3 assault WE into range without taking fire.  It also comes with the costs of lesser daemons for the failed summons and possibly backup summoning upgrades in case the kitted-out formation is broken or loses the characters needed before summoning the GD.

The GD were priced to be the equivalent of an assault scout titan but I think we didn't do a good job of identifying the "hidden" costs of the GD.

I don't think the L&D altar is all that important a consideration.  They are rarely seen anyway.  A 15cm move and no garrison inhibits its use as a summoning platform.  It's too slow to get the daemons to a useful position unless you're just charging across the board.

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Neal

The changes that should be up soon have the DP at 75pts, 8SP

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I think it needs to have the point-equivalent re-evaluated and the summoning points determined as a package deal.

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Neal

Wouldn't it be easier to just have a single die roll to determine if a Greater Daemon appears? Rolling a 3+ on a D6 could do it. Just adjust the points cost of the Greater Daemon acordingly.

Even easier would be to adopt the alternate Daemon Summoning rules i proposed some time ago (in essence: Just replace the unit with the Chaos Champion with the Greater Daemon).

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I played my first game with LatD a couple of weeks ago, and I used a Tzeentch Coven with Altar to summon a Lord of Change, and it worked quite well.

A reason why Altars may not be seen is that there are no models for them, and not every player (and I include myself in this) is great at converting, and finding a good proxy is awkward (I used the old Squat Land Train engine, but I didn't much care for it).

Summoning Greater Daemons may be a problem for Black Legion armies, but I certainly do not think it's a problem for LatD.

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