Tactical Command
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

Project Blood Rage - World Eaters
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=16384		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Project Blood Rage - World Eaters
Hi All

Before going into this, note that this projcet of developing the addition in place of Fearless for the majority of formations is for the list in the discussion that can be found here : World Eater Thread - Morgan & Frogbear



After the various games played with an all Fearless force (8 Games so far with the World Eaters), there are 2 common aspects that are causing us to question the 'fun factor' of an all Fearless force.

1. The Opponent
The opponent appears to feel almost ‘cheated’ when coming up against all Fearless forces. It is not uncommon for the ‘fun factor’ of a game to be effected due to such armies appearing to ‘strain’ the rules.


2. The Player
All Fearless armies have the common problem of being expensive, and rightly so due to their effect in a game. This does however lead to smaller activations. I personally have found that after a CC combat, the formation usually decimates the opponent, however they end up themselves being either broken, or on the verge of breaking. In this respect, by Turn 3, you either have all units broken, or they are 1BM away from being so. I never really have more than 2-3 units left (if any) due to such low activations and make it very hard to secure a game.

Now the idea is not to remove Fearless as a rule, but to take it away from rank and file troops (allowing only Daemons, Daemonic Vehicles or characters to keep the rule). In place of Fearless, the Blood Rage rule would incorporate the following lines (in bold)


Note: (Chaos Navy and spaceships are not effected by the Blood Rage Rule)

Any formation that fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook) must make an Engage action or Shoot at -1 rather than a Hold action. Also units effected by Blood Rage (excluding any units with Fearless) may make saving throws against extra hits from losing a combat even if the unit is broken, and when broken or otherwise forced to take a withdrawal move, will take damage only if it ends its move within 5cm of the enemy rather than 15cm.

The above will mean point drops in the formations to allow another unit or two to be taken in an average 3000 point force. In addition, it may tackle the above two issues raised from a player (more activations) and opponent (units that can actually die) perspective.

Daemons, character units, Dreadnoughts and Juggernauts are scheduled to keep Fearless at this time.

So what are people’s thoughts on removing Fearless from World Eater Berserkers, Terminators, Bikes, and Chosen, in favour of the extension to the Blood Rage rule?

Any other suggestions?
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Project Blood Rage - World Eaters
Quote: (Hena @ 09 Aug. 2009, 21:21 )

Thus failing to assault won't hurt them, but they would be vulnerable to being shot at when broken.

Interesting.

Firstly, yes, inspiration was taken from the Stubborn rule, however we wanted to incorporate the 5cm min retreat as well.   :))

Just 2 questions:

1. What would be the reasoning for taking the saves away from extra hits via shooting?

2. With the change suggested, we were determining taking 50 points off the unit (Berserkers, repricing Terminators, Bikes and Chosen) to make up for the lack of Fearless. Would you suggest the same reduction (50 points) or more with the above idea?

Thanks for contributing BTW
Author:  Blish [ Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Project Blood Rage - World Eaters
I did play one game against this test list with Feral Orks and to be honest I did not find the fearless to be too bad, if you do remove it you should keep it with the termies.

Against a all fearless team it can be quite hard, but yet again you are paying for it.

I guess the problem that I found out was not with the list which you have taken which, I do believe is the road to being a very good standard list. The problem I noticed was with the feral orks and there or my lack or ability to being able to deal with units such as Titans and Termis, due to the lack of TK or MW attacks.

If you you did reduce the Berserkers by about 50pts, they may be a little cheap.
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Project Blood Rage - World Eaters
Quote: (Blish @ 09 Aug. 2009, 22:22 )

I guess the problem that I found out was not with the list which you have taken which, I do believe is the road to being a very good standard list. The problem I noticed was with the feral orks and there or my lack or ability to being able to deal with units such as Titans and Termis, due to the lack of TK or MW attacks.

Hmm     :oo:

I guess we will have another game then Blish?  

I would like to take the change with the Blood Rage/Fearless rule to get your opinion as well.

Also, I assure you that the points change will be appropriate. It should add another unit or two to the force, however units will be easier for you to kill-off.

I will attempt to get the v0.9 test list up this week.

Also, I agree, squiggoths should have walker.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Project Blood Rage - World Eaters
Berzerkers don't have tobe the same.

In Black Legion armylist the unit is called "Berzerkers" in the World Eaters armylist they could be called "World Eaters Berzerkers" and can have whatever stats could fit.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Project Blood Rage - World Eaters
Makes sense to me, that's the same kind of logical split I used to allow Knights to have unique Special Rules in the Knightworld army list, but just be 'generic' units using 'generic' special abilities in the AMTL/Mechanicus PDF army lists.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:10 am ]
Post subject:  Project Blood Rage - World Eaters
I agree, the World Eaters could easily be different being "bio-enhanced" berzerkers.

I'm very interested to see if you can make this rule work Frogbear. I've been looking at the all fearless thing myself and wondering if it could be done better - especially for the opponent.
Author:  frogbear [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:15 am ]
Post subject:  Project Blood Rage - World Eaters
Quote: (Dobbsy @ 10 Aug. 2009, 11:10 )

I agree, the World Eaters could easily be different being "bio-enhanced" berzerkers.

I'm very interested to see if you can make this rule work Frogbear. I've been looking at the all fearless thing myself and wondering if it could be done better - especially for the opponent.

Yeah, it seems to be a common thing amongst people. You state that your whole army has Fearless and the mood instantly changes.

The fact that you have almost half the activations is not even looked at, nor is the fact that after the majority, if not all, the assaults, your unit is looking in pretty bad shape (whether that be due to casualties or blast markers).

What I am interested in is finding that balance between having a good and competative list that both the opponent and the player have fun with. I think the Blood Rage rule can incorporate aspects of Fearless without the negativity.

It is going to go through some playtest changes to see how we go I think. That is probably the best way, however I am always open to ideas that I can either incorporate or replace the current ones with.
Author:  frogbear [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:27 am ]
Post subject:  Project Blood Rage - World Eaters
Quote: (Hena @ 09 Aug. 2009, 23:01 )

So it's as nurgle only better. That in general is bad thing. It would be good if it's different.

Well the fact is that I am trying to not have many if any alternate rules, and if they can incorporate current ideas, then even better.  :)

Also the comparison made is not exactly fair either. Death Guard have more scope to their list with heavy support and vehicle support. The World Eaters lack this for an up close and personal type of approach. This would naturally mean more casualties.

Fearless is generally accepted as a better skill than Stubborn and I am looking at diluting it's effects. Would that not assist with a fairer comparison to the list? The World Eater terminators are also still paying for the teleport ability that Death Guard have incorporated in their base cost as well.

I think a ruling that incorporates other ideas can work, and I hope it would not be seen as 'stealing' an idea as it is for the eventual progress of the list for all to use. Are there any other suggestions anyone has regarding incorporating aspects of Fearless into the Blood Rage rule without it being Fearless?

:D
Author:  Dobbsy [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:38 am ]
Post subject:  Project Blood Rage - World Eaters
Also the comparison made is not exactly fair either. Death Guard have more scope to their list with heavy support and vehicle support. The World Eaters lack this for an up close and personal type of approach. This would naturally mean more casualties
I can attest to this. I played Clausewitz on saturday via vassal vs a marine list with 2 warhounds. It's not a pretty sight to see a large retinue pretty much destroyed before reaching the half way point of the board in turn one. It's lead me to look at making the World Eaters perhaps an all drop army list - it is a favoured way that they operate from what I read. I'm undecided as yet though. Need more games.
Author:  frogbear [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:54 am ]
Post subject:  Project Blood Rage - World Eaters
Quote: (Dobbsy @ 10 Aug. 2009, 14:38 )

It's lead me to look at making the World Eaters perhaps an all drop army list - it is a favoured way that they operate from what I read. I'm undecided as yet though. Need more games.

Big Time.

My last few formations have seen all the berserkers drop in and terminators teleport in.

The only way to foot-slog it is to either triple with vehicles to set up for a 2nd turn charge, or hug the cover and probably get a 3rd turn charge.

Now Rhinos will set you back 40 points for an unguaranteed chance of reaching the enemy in Turn 2. Dreadclaws for 10 points extra almost guarantees a drop into enemy formations or objectives on the turn that you want.

For me (at the moment anyway), it's Dreadclaws or nothing.
Author:  frogbear [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Project Blood Rage - World Eaters
The other idea I am working on is to maybe keep Fearless however incorporate a unit as part of the core formation that are not Berserkers or from the original World Eaters.

I feel as if I have been forgetting that the World Eaters as a Legion are non-existant. They have fractured into different warbands as is highlighted in the latest Imperial Armour Book (Siege of Vraks part 2).

It may lead to two lists:

1. Post Heresy World Eater List (current v0.8 version)
2. Post Betrayer Khorne Warband List (currently being considered version)

[Anything pre-heresy would not involve Fearless and is therefore not included.]

The World Eaters as a Post Heresy Legion is not a significant time in the whole history of the universal background. Even so, it does deserve it's own list, however I feel that there should be 2 different lists for Post heresy and Post Betrayer.
Author:  frogbear [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Project Blood Rage - World Eaters
I have been doing some more 'brainstorming' on this and want to gauge people's reaction to this idea.

Instead of changing the whole fearless thing, introduce a non-fearless unit to the list. This would encorage the player to look at alternative options for more activations. Here is the proposed unit:

Code Sample: 

Type        Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
Infantry 15cm 4+    3+         4+
 
Weapon               Range       Firepower Notes
Bolt pistols       (15cm)       Small Arms
Chainsword/Chainaxe    Base Contact    Assault Weapons

Notes: -
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


---
Formation type         Core Units           Upgrades Allowed   Points Cost
World Eaters             One World Eaters          Assault Walkers,        225 first 6 units
Initiate Retinue Skull Lord character      Dreadnoughts,           +25 per extra unit
                        upgrade and six to eight  Dreadclaws,
                        World Eaters initiate     Predators
                        units                     Transport
 


Thoughts?

Are they too dear for what they are perhaps?
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/