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Black Legion Playtest Feedback
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Author:  Lord Inquisitor [ Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback
Quite some time ago I posted a set of playtest changes for the Black Legion list. There's been quite a bit of discussion but very little actual feedback. So this thread is to post any and all feedback on these alterations to the list. In particular the Defiler, Desecrator, Obliterators and aircraft as these have the biggest impact, but the other changes are also important if you have any feedback.

This thread is for playtest feedback ONLY. Any opinions on other people's feedback or discussion should be taken to this thread. ANY SUCH POSTS IN THIS THREAD WILL BE DELETED.

When providing feedback, please include how many games you have played with the units (approximately if necessary, but please do say), how often the changes have impacted the game and any conclusions you have.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:10 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback
I have some opinions, based on around 25 games with the modified stats, both using CSM and playing against them:

- Defilers.

The Defilers' new stats really would be better served with their own formation. As it is, they are too fast when attached to an infantry formation on foot, but not quick enough to keep up with a Rhino-borne formation.

I have used them as a seperate formation with the Red Corsairs army list, where they make for great backfield defenders, able to threaten a wide area of your board half with a charge and Firefight / Close Combat (they are great at either) whilst still being able to lay harrasment hits on enemies at long range across the board with their battlecannons.

I've won several games simply by using them as a threat, meaning the enemy didn't dare to attack the flank of my army for fear of Defiler reprisals, despite that flank being largely held up just by Defilers.

Attached to formations, they've been sub-par.


- Aircraft

The Hellblades are awesome, well worth their points. They could go to armour - and I'd still take them. They have excellent AA fire and a superb 6x AP4+ shots for ground straffing. Fabulous, especially for the limited range CSM.

I've found Helltalons to be sub-par and they could do with a 50pts points discount IMHO. Their stats are fine but their potency in games is weak.


- Desecrator & Obliterators

Not built either of these and I hate playing with proxies, so I've no in-game feedback from using them personally. On paper the nerfed Obliterators still look great though.


- Chaos Vindicators

I use one or two in most list builds, they're not particularly brilliant but nice to have.


- Downgraded Daemon Prince

This unit is fine. Still the hardest infantry unit in the game, and able to put out a serious number of attacks with the proper combination of upgrades.

- Feral Titan

Seems much better without Macro-Weapon; no longer a crime against humanity. Only tested in ~5 games, playing against them not with them.



=====

I may break my personal rule about not proxying models in order to proxy a Harbinger bomber for a few games.
Author:  Dave [ Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:05 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback
I've played at least 6 games against BL with the changes since their posting and another 6 without them. I've only observed Raptors, Stalkers, Hellblades and Ferals though.

The Raptor re-costing I don't have much of an opinion on. I think they're fine either at 35 or 40. We're only talking what? A maximum of 40 points out of 3k here?

The Stalkers are a nice flavorful addition. Not overly effective but enough to serve as a determent in a couple of games.

Hellblades, don't seem overpowered so are fine by me.

Ferals. If only one change can be made, it should be this one.  3BP, MW, IC is murder. I've picked up Marines like they were Gaunts when this thing fired. Add a 30cm movement to that and hiding from it is very tricky.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback
TRC thinks the Hellblades are underpriced for 200 in comparison to the Thunderbolt etc.

Any theories on this Lord I? I'd like to know so I can clear them up in the World Eaters list.

Cheers!
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:07 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback
Following what dobbsy said its based on (large amounts of) generic aircraft expereince and half a game with them on vassel - 3 formations. Easily chopped up the thunderbolts and proceeded to strafe the ground with wild abandon. Range 30cm meant they weren't touched by AA.


Buuuuttttt...
I notice in the playtest changes sheet they are range 15cm! This is something of a difference! :) So which version is correct (I certainly don't remember people saying they should be range 30?)?

(Incidentally I still prefer twin reapers with ap3+/at5+/aa4+ and no armour save to make them seem like very light fighters - cram in 3 for 150 points, but this is due to an irrational desire for fighter swarms! Its not actually that necessary here - the 200 price point is ok when the banelord is 200 points.)
Author:  Dobbsy [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:17 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback
That'll be Lord I's listing. I have no idea why my list has them with 30cm range. That is most odd.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback
Interesting...Red Corsairs Hellblades have 30cm too....
Author:  Lord Inquisitor [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback
Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 26 Jul. 2009, 20:07 )

Following what dobbsy said its based on (large amounts of) generic aircraft expereince and half a game with them on vassel - 3 formations. Easily chopped up the thunderbolts and proceeded to strafe the ground with wild abandon. Range 30cm meant they weren't touched by AA.

Response here.

E&C - can I check that your feedback on the Hellblades was playing with 15cm ranges?
Author:  Steve54 [ Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback
From playtestimg the BL list - and against it

The main difference with the list is that it now has to be played as a mechanised force - the only way to have effective AA is with the stalker which, in turn, forces you to take rhinos for the retinues or the AA is quickly shot away. This present 2 problems 1- retinues now end up very expensive - 390 including a pact and secondly it is basically a new list rather than an update. If you want to use the desecrator for flak or the stalker alone then you have to buy dreads or defilers to act as shields which gets very expensive.

Defiler - without the barrage there is no possible reason to take one as it is too slow with a rhino based unit and is an AT magnet otherwise.

Desecrator - pretty much the same as the defiler

Hellblades-improvement on the old stats, now actually a viable choice.

Obliterators - the opposite is true for these as they are not really an option now. Spending points on a terminator formation is always a huge risk for BL and oblits are no longer even a decent choice. The only reason to take them is as a fearless unit - but then a Prince is cheaper. With any other formation they are even worse as, as stated above, retinues now have to take rhinos. I really don't understand how removing their role and reducing their stats results in a points increase.

Ferals - with MW+IC Ferals were comparable with warhounds - probably slightly better against an inexperienced opponent who stays bunched up or doesn't keep at a distance but worse against an experienced opponent with their lesser range. They were only really effective singling or sustaining. So 300 was not unreasonable. Without MW they lose their effectiveness - I wouldn't price them even to the same level as a warhound now as now they are solely for killing no save infantry.

Vindicators - decent addition

Greater daemon - reduction in SP is good as it reduces the risk of not summoning them when you are already taking a big risk with the terminators

Ravager - could even drop to 625, or add D3 to the main weapon?

Raptors - don't really think the points change was necessary. I think they would be better off at 160 for 4 35 for extras

Factions - doesn't really make a differnce for BL though for LatD it allows interesting combinations of daemon engines if adopted. For BL allows use of complemetary daemon types.

Stalker - I still don't understand this inclusion. In other threads we have massive compliants about non-canon units and relating to 40k yet here we go out off our way to invent one based on a apparent remark Jervis said, as he hasn't been involved in development for years - or had any more than minimal input at all in epic, and we don't know the context of this remark I really don't see how it is justified - especially when AA was not a huge issue before.

In conclusion these changes have altered the BL from a balalced lsit with some issues that needed tweeking to a different list which is weak compared to most tourney lists.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:25 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback
Quote: (Lord Inquisitor @ 27 Jul. 2009, 18:47 )

E&C - can I check that your feedback on the Hellblades was playing with 15cm ranges?

Although I tested them at 30cm range for a while, I now use them with 15cm range, and I'd still take them with no armour save as they're excellent both at AA and at AP, and with three planes per flight you can afford to throw them into light AA, take a loss, and still put up some decent attacks.
Author:  Kleomenes [ Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback
I tend to play my Black Legion armies with a focus on black legion marines, built around mechanised formations. I use some armour (chaos preds and land raiders in seperate formations usually). I have tried a range of army styles though. The playtest changes havent significantly altered my style of play (although they have made it easier to leave out terminators/foot retinues as there is flak elsewhere)

Defiler - Not used. I would consider using it now though, if I had some figures!

Desecrator - see above

Hellblades- these are my AA of choice. I've found them good when doing AA but of limited use in ground attacks unless they find some juicy infantry targets. Underpriced? Possibly, but I don't think my games give a good reflection as they are usually aircraft light.

Obliterators - I've still taken 1-2 obliterators in terminator formations to try them out. They have certainly given terminators the chance to put out a bit of ranged fire after the first assault, when everything near them is dead  :vD Chaos terminators struggle to do this due to their low AT value otherwise. Ive had obliterators take out several manticore formations this way. In my opinion this is what you pay for, although I would say they do seem  a bit overpriced now. (by how much, I couldnt say)

Ferals - MW+IC Ferals were overpowered IMO. I used 3 once, I think, as I almost felt like it was cheating to use so many - IG mechanised infantry companies disappeared like chaff, and there was little that could be done to stop them with clever use of terrain. I'm not sure, however, if without MW they are actually worth 300 rather than 275. Yes the death storm is better than the VMB, but twinning that with the Hellmouth gives substantially less AT firepower overall in real terms. Firefight is not in my experience an option due to low effective formation size - anything a feral can firefight, it can shoot better.

That said I can't say they have underperformed at 300

Vindicators - Not used

Greater daemon - Not used in Black legion

Ravager - Ive actually had good use out of the ravager in history, but mainly as a FF platform. The TK gun is rubbish and needs a boost IMO, as the titan does feel undergunned.

Raptors - I use them at 35, I use them at 40. I feel like I am getting less of a bargain at 40, I'm not sure they are underpriced. The 4+ firefight is very nice, but they are easily easily broken in my experience due to smallish formation sizes and lack of tanks to hide behind.

Factions - Works fine

Stalker - Used this quite a lot, it seems fine. If anything a bit overpriced - as I mentioned earlier our games are light on aircraft so that may be just a personal perspective.
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