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| Anyone help with how to use demons? http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=16023 |
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| Author: | The_Real_Chris [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Anyone help with how to use demons? |
Ok, I think I get demons, they basically make a pumped formation tougher (all those fearless characters and leader and whatnot) and keep small formations viable as a threat even if there is only one left. But I'm crap at using them. I tend to rely on armies that play like a mixture of guard and marines instead. These two are examples of that. 900 3 x Feral 550 2 Deathwheels 225 Decimator 325 Retinue, Demon Prince 125 Forlorn hope 385 4 Chosen, Demon Prince, oblitorator 310 4 Chosen, Demon Prince 175 5 Raptors Or 900 3 x Feral 300 Decimator and Defiler 225 Decimator 400 Retinue, Demon Prince, oblitorator 125 Forlorn hope 770 2 x 4 Chosen, Demon Prince, oblitorator 280 8 Raptors An army I could imagine using demons with is a crazy drop army (Ship, 5 retinues, 5 forlorn hopes with drop pods, with 650 points for rhinos for some of the retinues, demonic focus, lesser demons, maybe some other toys) that drops forlorn hopes everywhere and have more impact than a similar marine list. What about a less extreme army? |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Anyone help with how to use demons? |
Our Chaos player takes a unit with noise marines and sets it up on an objective (preferably in cover) with the help of the garrison rule when he can. He then summons Daemonettes (Invulnerable, First Strike, AR4+,CC3+) and he is very hard to remove from that objective. You either throw alot at that unit or ignore the objective. The sheer number of units, along with their awesome assistance in CC/FF and good armour all round is a definite winner for such a task. |
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| Author: | The_Real_Chris [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Anyone help with how to use demons? |
Quote: (frogbear @ 01 Jul. 2009, 09:43 ) Our Chaos player takes a unit with noise marines and sets it up on an objective (preferably in cover) with the help of the garrison rule when he can. He then summons Daemonettes (Invulnerable, First Strike, AR4+,CC3+) and he is very hard to remove from that objective. You either throw alot at that unit or ignore the objective. The sheer number of units, along with their awesome assistance in CC/FF and good armour all round is a definite winner for such a task. But thats still 500 points + demons (and wouldn't nurgle be better as a speedbump)? Outside of a siege army I'm not usually using 1/6th of the army to guard one objective. How do you have enough to carry out the attack, or rather how do demons play into that? And how large a demon pool should an army have? 200, 300 points? How many do you chew through in the average game? |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Anyone help with how to use demons? |
I am not the one that takes the force. From what I remember, he took 1 greater daemon and 9 smaller ones (??) I cannot remember much more of the army. It is going to be smaller than some other armies as there are usually higher numbers. As for Nurgle marines, cannot be in that same unit with a Slaanesh Icon and the noise marines. |
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| Author: | The_Real_Chris [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Anyone help with how to use demons? |
I meant a nurgle formation rather than slanesh. So 3+ armour saves for cult marines and demons. I don't tend to go with low number of formation armies (unless they are designed that way, say a titan legion), too many potential opponents with 12+ activation armies that can run rings round them. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Anyone help with how to use demons? |
Chris, your army lists make me go   I use Daemons mostly on Terminator formations, in order to pump them up just before they Engage. Daemonic Focus is largely useless unless you want to have a Forlorn Hope formation with a bunch of Nurgle Daemons (ungodly hard to kill/break), so Daemons are simply used as an ultra-mobile Engagement booster. |
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| Author: | Legion 4 [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Anyone help with how to use demons? |
I only take Deamons if I have to ... And sending them on the flank and/or as cannon fodder IMO is their best use ... But maybe I'm just very old school ... "We don't need no stinking Deamons!"  
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| Author: | Chroma [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Anyone help with how to use demons? |
Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 01 Jul. 2009, 09:54 ) And how large a demon pool should an army have? 200, 300 points? How many do you chew through in the average game? I don't spend any points on Daemons in a Black Legion army... those points are better spent on actual, "on-the-ground" formations/upgrades; Daemons are a much better investment in a LatD army. I might buy a single Daemonic Focus to use in case I roll a "six" for a Strategy Roll. |
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| Author: | Ginger [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Anyone help with how to use demons? |
I have seen up to 8x lesser daemons used, but never a Greater Daemon. The main issue being the cost of the various upgrades needed to gain (and potentially keep) the daemons is significant (~300-400) or the equivalent of 1-2 formations. Greater Daemons are a risk because their appearance is not guaranteed. Generally they have two uses; as a force multiplier and as a shield. Raised just before an assault they can really savage an opposing formation while also not counting in resolution, a significant *double-wammy*. They can also be used to keep a BTS alive (can't they Steve54 ) shielding the remaining unit(s) from being destroyed. However when using daemons, the original formations may be a bit weaker and prone to breaking if caught 'naked' so-to-speak.Generally used to enhance Retinues and chaos terminators, they are also sometimes added to Forlorn hope to give a massive bite to a small formation. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Anyone help with how to use demons? |
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 01 Jul. 2009, 12:38 ) Daemons are simply used as an ultra-mobile Engagement booster. I agree with this.  Raptors, Bikes and Forlorn Hope with Pacts are fast, relatively cheap and can summon/assault (not to mention bikes and raptors are decent on their own).  Lots of targets, any one of which can muster a decent threat until completely wiped out.  If you're close enough you can use the faction daemons, but Beasts are the most common. Chosen teleport/summon is another previously mentioned use for daemons (and you can even usually get the heavier CC daemons into play). As far as fitting it into an overall battle plan, I like playing BL with an area denial element and a maneuver element.  The area denial/main battle line is ~3 Retinues with Havocs or Noise Marines, at least 2 of which garrison on OW.  With a forward position and 45cm range, they can hit/prep a lot of the board.  Maneuver is the aforementioned Raptors, Bikes and Forlorn Hope.  Armor can provide more mobile firepower.  Chosen can provide a strong deepstrike as above. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Anyone help with how to use demons? |
Quote: (Ginger @ 01 Jul. 2009, 18:10 ) Raised just before an assault they can really savage an opposing formation while also not counting in resolution, a significant *double-wammy*. Daemons DO count for assault resolution. |
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| Author: | Ginger [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Anyone help with how to use demons? |
Quote: (nealhunt @ 01 Jul. 2009, 18:53 ) Quote: (Ginger @ 01 Jul. 2009, 18:10 ) Raised just before an assault they can really savage an opposing formation while also not counting in resolution, a significant *double-wammy*. Daemons DO count for assault resolution. Ah. That might have made a difference to my failed assaults over the weekend, but probably not big enough to get over my dice throwing 
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| Author: | The_Real_Chris [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Anyone help with how to use demons? |
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 01 Jul. 2009, 12:38 ) Chris, your army lists make me go  What, no crying? I must improve! Still you can't accuse my chaos lists of not being themed. I must say I'm warming the to idea of dropping 5 forlorn hopes on the enemy, attacking with demons and following up with retinues. Not a WE in sight to. I can't imagine they will last very long especially without ATSKNF, but still maybe in the last 10,000 years they will have seen enough comrades sent on these suicide missions to know a few tricks. Plus it would play really really fast, which could be useful if I'm stuck with vassel  That would be (I reckon all Tzentch) 150 Spaceship 850 5 x More Forlorn than you can imagine Hope + Pact + Dreadclaws 680 2 x Retinue + Rhinos + Pact 700 2 x Retinue + Oblitorator (one with the SC) 375 Retinue + Defiler + Pact (BTS) 240 12 x Lesser Demons The somewhat faster alternative is 150 Spaceship 510 3 x Forlorn Hope + Pact + Dreadclaws (Mr T) 390 Retinue + Pact + Dreadclaws + Demon Prince (undivisable) 700 2 x Retinue + Oblitorator (indivisable) 410 4 Chosen + Oblitorator + Pact + Demon Prince (Mr T) 400 5 Chosen + Pact + Demon Prince (pop Khorne) 200 5 Raptors + Pact (pop Khorne or Mr T, unsure) 240 12 x Lesser Demons Though the purity of the former above is very appealing Prob be tzentch so lots of FF. Okay so perhaps I am not fully getting my head round demons, but its a start
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Anyone help with how to use demons? |
You have more Pacts than you need in both those lists. You'll average 4 summons per Pact. I figure that once you get to the range where you want to summon, only about half the formations will be functional, so something like a 2:1 daemon-to-pact ratio is about right as far as not having daemons on the sidelines or having unused pact capacity on the board. In my experience, you usually lose daemons about as fast as you lose capacity to summon them so the ratio usually holds up. Also, faster formations mean a greater likelihood that the formations will be able to make use of summoning. If your pact formations are all fast/teleporter, you might want that ratio just a bit higher. Currently, you have 7-8 pacts and only 12 LDs. I'd say drop a pact and add a daemon so you end up with 6-7 pacts and 13 daemons (and gain 5 points to spend if it's useful for something). |
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| Author: | Steve54 [ Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Anyone help with how to use demons? |
Quote: (Ginger @ 01 Jul. 2009, 20:34 ) Quote: (nealhunt @ 01 Jul. 2009, 18:53 ) Quote: (Ginger @ 01 Jul. 2009, 18:10 ) Raised just before an assault they can really savage an opposing formation while also not counting in resolution, a significant *double-wammy*. Daemons DO count for assault resolution. Ah. That might have made a difference to my failed assaults over the weekend, but probably not big enough to get over my dice throwing  That the way we have always played it Ginger -daemons don't cause BMs but do count in resolution. From memory the assaults we had on Sunday were- Terminators vs retinue with no daemons death wheel vs assault marines death wheel vs assault marines bikes vs tactical chosen vs devastators Only the last two featured daemons and I think you were wiped out before resolution both times |
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