Tactical Command
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BL Supreme Commander
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=13476		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  zombocom [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:58 am ]
Post subject:  BL Supreme Commander
Since I keep getting told off for bringing this up in other threads, I'll start a new one...

We all know the debate over the "free" chaos characters. Some say they are entirely free, others say they are somehow included in the cost. However, the supreme commander really is free, not "free", whichever way you look at it.

Why is this? The only other army with a free SC, Orks, get it to counter their low initiative. What downside is countered by having the SC free in the BL list?

There is an argument that the army should always be led by a great warlord. Where is the background that suggests this drawn from? Even if this is correct, why does he have to be free? Why can't he be properly costed?
Author:  pixelgeek [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:25 am ]
Post subject:  BL Supreme Commander
Quote: (zombocom @ 06 Sep. 2008, 21:58 )

Why is this?

Can't remember. Its been a long time. Its been like that in the army for a long time. Frankly I'm not sure why people aren't asking for a free one for the Marines since they need it more and they get shafted with the cost of theirs.

The only other army with a free SC, Orks, get it to counter their low initiative. What downside is countered by having the SC free in the BL list?

The SC has very little  to do with initiative

There is an argument that the army should always be led by a great warlord.

I've not seen anyone make it
Author:  zombocom [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:34 am ]
Post subject:  BL Supreme Commander
Quote: (pixelgeek @ 07 Sep. 2008, 06:25 )

The SC has very little  to do with initiative

Since all the SC provides as an initiative reroll, I'd say it has a lot to do with initiative.

And you're absolutely right, Marines need an SC more than CSM, so why do the CSM get a free on when the Marines don't?
Author:  Wisp [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  BL Supreme Commander
Quote: (zombocom @ 07 Sep. 2008, 05:58 )

Why is this? The only other army with a free SC, Orks, get it to counter their low initiative. What downside is countered by having the SC free in the BL list?

There is an argument that the army should always be led by a great warlord. Where is the background that suggests this drawn from?

Low initiative? Ha! I'd rather have 3+ initiative with +2 to two important actions and some of the most reliable aircraft in the game, than 2+ initiative.

Chaos armies tend to be ragtag bands, each led by a single powerful character and only held together by a powerful warlord, background is drawn from 40k codexes (and probably the novels, which I personally wouldn't touch).
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:  BL Supreme Commander
Weeellll. You could make it an upgrade cost. As in it fills an upgrade slot.

As to the cost itself (2000/3000/4000/5000 point battles)

25 points 1.3%/0.8%/0.6%/0.5%
50 points 2.5%/1.7%/1.3%/1.0%
75 points 3.8%/2.5%/1.9%/1.5%
100 points 5.0%/3.3%/2.5%/2.0%
How much difference would charging actually make?

Going back onto Lords I still would like to see them as optional (a retinue without a Lord could simply be part of a bigger one) but if they were an upgrade I guess they could become like marine commanders.

If upgrade slots are a concern you could have an upgrade called commanders/bigwigs/whatever that allows you to get all the different character upgrades, but at the cost of only one slot.
Author:  Ginger [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  BL Supreme Commander
I can accept the argument that Chaos troops are a rag-tag (of the universe's finest) that needs a warlord to control them - hence each major formation has to include the warlord. I can also accept that the formation was costed to include the upgrade, so it is not 'free'. However this line of argument does raise the question of just how much the character was worth in the first place, or indeed the relative cost of the CSM Vs the SM :p .

However ignoring that, we do not seem to have an explanation for providing the SC to the CSM army, apparently for free. Even if we accept that 50 points may be excessive, 30-40 points seems to match the general ratio of costs for the two races (and would also be usefull for making up the points in the army).
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  BL Supreme Commander
How much difference would charging actually make?
Enough to satisfy the aggrevied, one would hope.
Author:  Irondeath [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  BL Supreme Commander
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 08 Sep. 2008, 00:26 )

How much difference would charging actually make?

Enough to satisfy the aggrevied, one would hope.
:))
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:33 pm ]
Post subject:  BL Supreme Commander
Well, the point has been made many times that the BL army list suffers from some image problems, and the semi-free characters / free SC is one of the most volatile subjects.

If it won't make much difference, then just make the SC cost 50pts!
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  BL Supreme Commander
I don't have a problem with charging some token amount for it, but I do think the SC should be mandatory for the background reasons already stated.

So, how much?  Definitely no more than 50 points and arguably as little as 25.  The SM SC is pricey at 100 and if the CSMs are expected to come in at 75-85% of that, then the CSM version should be no more than ~75 points total.  Since it's replacing a current character with a nominal ~40 point estimated equivalent value, then you're looking at 35 points max.


Of course, that screws with the original rationale.  If it's 1) mandatory, and 2) so cheap that it makes almost no difference in the army composition, why bother?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  BL Supreme Commander
why bother?

Because it's one of a dozen little issues that (all put together) result in an army list with balance problems.
Author:  pixelgeek [ Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  BL Supreme Commander
Quote: (nealhunt @ 08 Sep. 2008, 06:47 )

Of course, that screws with the original rationale.  If it's 1) mandatory, and 2) so cheap that it makes almost no difference in the army composition, why bother?

This is the problem of trying to fix issues that are largely about perception.
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  BL Supreme Commander
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 08 Sep. 2008, 15:00 )

why bother?


Because it's one of a dozen little issues that (all put together) result in an army list with balance problems.
Yeah, that sounds okay when you put it like that, but the problem is that if all the "dozen little issues" that people complained about were implemented, a very vanilla non-abusive CSM core would go up more than 10%, not counting the SC cost.  3 Retinues, 1 max Chosen and 1 max Raptor (i.e. minimizing the effect of the supposedly "free" characters) is a pretty generic, non-extreme base that very few people would take serious issue with.  However, between the Red Corsairs points and Zombo's +25 per Retinue, that would add 170 points to just under 1500 points of formations before considering an SC cost.
Author:  Lord Inquisitor [ Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  BL Supreme Commander
I have to say, I'm starting to think the free SC is not an issue.

Imagine I was making an Imperial Guard list (or any other list for that matter) and I suggested giving 2D6 free Fearless, Inspiring, Leaders with Power Weapons. You guys would lynch me. The only balance issue I've seen with this is that people want it to be scalable not random. Equally, I don't see anyone objecting to the Ork SC. Marines and Eldar don't have a freebie like this exactly, but they have their own advantages (TSKNF, unlimited aircraft for Marines, a whole host of army rules for Eldar).

Obviously, the logic is that such "freebies" are internally balanced in the list and as long as all playtesting takes this into account, points values for units should be appropriate for games of normal points range.
Author:  dptdexys [ Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  BL Supreme Commander
I think all the lists get something free(balanced internally) in one way or another.
Gaurd get free commissars,
Orks get free SC and Grots with boys,
Marines get free rhinos,
Eldar get the free Avatar and "Free" activations once per turn if they want  :vD



sorry that's a Yorkshire thing but I had to slip that in.
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