Tactical Command
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World Eater list
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=12960		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Dobbsy [ Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  World Eater list
I've been perusing the WE list (v0.2)recently and I'm wondering if a concerted effort was made to force smaller activations for the army? In pretty much all of the test list I tried I was left with only 5-7max activations in any incarnation. Forcing 8 unit formations while fluffy is very restrictive when unit points seem quite high. The Bike Company (is it really 150 points more expensive than the EC bike company given it's only 2 units more?) and Armour company, particularly, are extremely expensive. Also are Chosen units really worth 100 points a piece?

Is there a later version of the list I am missing?

Cheers all!
Author:  Olly [ Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:58 am ]
Post subject:  World Eater list
I too am finding the same problems with an average of 7 activations for any list I try to make thats even remotely competitive. I would honestly love to see the rhino's changed from their current 20pts each with CC4+ to the bog standard rhino, likewise with the pred's and maybe keep the CC4+ as an upgrade? Also some of the points costs are ridiculous  :oo: I agree, the army I'm currently building will end up more for show then gaming
Author:  Dobbsy [ Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:18 am ]
Post subject:  World Eater list
Ahh good, it's not just me then  :;):

Just as an idea I would probably make bikers FF 5+ and around 375ish points. Given SM bikes are 40 points each unit I am guessing you could cost WE bikes at 40-45 each (8 units + lord). The armour company needs it's LRs down to around 75-85 (even if the SM list cost was overlooked by the ERC update :disagree:  :heart-break: ) to make it viable to take a LR company - otherwise no one (other than the criminally insane  :laugh:  )will be taking this cool formation as it accounts for almost a 1/3 of your army points having to buy 8!  :laugh:


I have a few other ideas if the AC would like to have a chat.... not sure who that is right now though..
Author:  Lord Inquisitor [ Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:34 am ]
Post subject:  World Eater list
I think the one you've been using is one I made, and one which I've never really hammered into shape, largely due to lack of interest/playtesting.

If there is a big drive to work this list out then it can be dusted off and looked at again, either nag me enough and I'll get on it or we can appoint someone else to work on this lot (I know that someone posted their own version recently).
Author:  scarik [ Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:53 am ]
Post subject:  World Eater list
My friend Rashid really wants to get into Epic, but he's a Khorne junky so its pretty important for the list to be usable for him to retain interest.

For now we're going to be using LordI's and it is very restrictive, but you know what they say "When life gives you lemons, BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!"

EDIT: I'm using v0.2 and with the vast change in Khornate rules in 40k recently, specifically the removal of the real stupid Blood Lust rules, I think we need to hammer out some new Epic rules.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:56 am ]
Post subject:  World Eater list
Well I'd definitely be keen once I get a force together Lord-I.
Author:  Lord Inquisitor [ Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:09 am ]
Post subject:  World Eater list
I still like the set of rules for the Blood Rage we have now: it may not come up that much but when in the thick of things your Khorne formations will essentially always get to assault but they might assault when you want them to do something else.

They're still 1+ activations - unlike orks which are restricted to engage or double actions, the World Eaters still have the whole range of options available. Most of the time you'll be able to control them just as any other CSM formation, but they will go bezerk once in a while!

Just because the current 40K rules have parsed out many of the more flavourful rules and units doesn't mean we can't keep the rage of Khorne in the list...
Author:  Dobbsy [ Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:55 am ]
Post subject:  World Eater list
Lord I - how do you go about costing unit types? A berserker unit has CC2+ FF6+ and short range 15cm shooter and a Noisemarine is CC 4+ FF 3+ with a 30cm shooter. At this point in time I figure NMs cost about 37.5 per unit as they are 275 for six with a lord/leader(guessing 50 points for a lord).

If SM Tacticals cost 40 per unit (6 units plus 3x 20 point rhinos - if this is a correct assessment of SM rhino's cost..) for 4+ CC 4+ FF w/45cm shooter, are the NMs costed correctly? Obviously SM tacticals are not the best comparison due to the SM list being badly costed across the board but you get my meaning.  :laugh:

Given WEs have to get into CC to do most of their damage perhaps we could look at the lower end of the spectrum for WE costs per unit??WEs could easily slot somewhere into the 25-30 points a unit area (maybe 225 for 8 plus 50 for lord?? so 275?). You have to add Rhinos to this cost too if they have any decent chance of getting to grips with the enemy - not to mention if you want to add an Icon bearer or Champ the costs per formation jump up very quickly.

Another idea for retinue cost reduction could be just drop the Bloodlord for each retinue and perhaps take one as an upgrade as required??? Is it entirely needed for every retinue? There's only so many Leader abilities you'd need. He'd still be a Bloodlord but he'd just have more retinues under his eye - kind of like how Space Marines do i.e you take one captain for a couple of Tactical formations to utilise the Leader ability in engagements etc.

Also, what was the reasoning for costing rhinos separately for Chaos army lists? I've always wondered...

I like the Blood rage too. I think that is a neat mechanism for Khornites :agree:


I would honestly love to see the rhino's changed from their current 20pts each with CC4+ to the bog standard rhino, likewise with the pred's and maybe keep the CC4+ as an upgrade?
Yeah I would agree here too but what are "bog-standard" rhinos worth? Could we perhaps do a 6+ CC instead? the combat blades wouldn't be a 4+ CC surely?
Author:  Dobbsy [ Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  World Eater list
I've just been playing around with costs and was wondering what folks might think about these adjustments. I have two values for a few of the formations to see what a general look might be for each option.

Retinue: 8 World Eater beserker units 225 OR 250
At 225 they are 28 points each and at 250 they are 31.25 each.

Blood Lord upgrade: 50
I think one of the possible reasons (other than them being "well 'ard" unit types  :vD  which increases their points somewhat)that dedicated Chaos forces seem to be low on activations in general is because they are forced to take character types for every infantry retinue/company they have. I think this adds a chunk of points that hampers acivation count. I'm not sure of the reason this was done in the Chaos designs - can anyone enlighten me? Was there a definitive need to have retinues towing a Lord each time?

Armour Company: 8 WE Land Raiders 675
That's about 84.4 points per raider. On a personal note, I think it's a damn shame we don't see more Land raiders in the game. Having a World Eater armoured company would look brilliant I think.

Bike Company: 8 WE Bikers 350

WE Chosen: 4 Chosen units and a Blood lord for 400 or 8 units plus lord for 750.
What self respecting Khorne lord would take 5's, 6's or 7's?  :laugh: I figured we could stipulate that Chosen are 4 minis to a base, that way when you take 4 units you still have 8 minis per full squad(2 bases= 1 sqd to me), it's still within basing guidelines for infantry and people get to save on the number of terminator figures they need to get :;): Plus it makes things a little easier for the player in terms of costs etc. 8 is fluffy but down-right costly - at least they also have the option if they want to though...
I figured the Chosen would be the most likely to have the SC in their ranks so Chosen would get the Lord included in their cost.

Anyway this is just a brainstorm but was keen to see what other sthought of it.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  World Eater list
For the rule of 8 thing drop it for most stuff unless they are 'cheap' like bog standard legionairs and instead have a rule saying the whole army must total a multiple of eight? :)
Author:  Dobbsy [ Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  World Eater list
whole army must total a multiple of eight?

:laugh:  :)  Might be a good idea in theory TRC. How realistic would it be in practice though?
Author:  Olly [ Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  World Eater list
The rule of eight is just stupid, Tzeentch doesn't have a rule of nine on everything so why should Khorne? Nurgle/slaanesh I can understand due to relativelly low number, but multiples of 8 seriously hurt on anything thats not infantry, I would suggest making vehicles numbers 4-8 as having the large set amount is simply too restrictive IMO, for inspiration look at the thousand son list.
Author:  Tiny-Tim [ Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  World Eater list
Copy of quick points, I've had a quick look at this list today and played around with some of the formations. I can squeeze out a 3000pt army with 3x Retinues, Armoured Company (4x Predators), Assault Engines, Hellfire Cannons & 2 separate Ferals. This does have the problem that there is no AA and you have to garrison everything that you can to get close to the enemy, but 8 Hellfires garrisoning on Overwatch  :evil: 75cm MW4+ is far, far too dangerous.

I would also consider dropping the size of the Daemon Assault Engine formation. Plus a Defiler/Destroyer formation would work, provides support to the Retinues & possible AA cover, we could sacrifice the Hellfires from the list (shouldn't they be more Iron Warriors nowerdays anyway?)

I'm interested in the idea about a separate Bloodlord option, traditionally a retinue had to have a lord to hold the band together but I can see an argument for lieutenants being incharge of flanking formations. An idea that I have been toying with is if we have a Character up-grade, can we not make it more expensive and add in Daemon Pack with the Character. My reasoning behind this is to try and force daemons into these type of armies as currently I am finding it very difficult to justify daemons in either a World Eater or my Emperor's Children army.

Oh yes, drop the number 8 rule.
Author:  scarik [ Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  World Eater list
They're still 1+ activations - unlike orks which are restricted to engage or double actions,

My copy of the PDF gives them a 2+ Initiative with a 1+ if no Enemy in range and a 'must Engage instead of Hold if with in 30'

This just makes them rush into firefight range and get murdered by Guardsmen if they don't happen to be in their Rhinos.

Bloodcrazed beasts they may be, but they can still fly spaceships and drive complicated tanks and war machines, I bet they can also wait to charge until its actually beneficial.

The Blood Rage rule is entirely complicated, just give them a 1+ Initiative and call it a day, the terrible shooting and awesome CC values will make people want to Engage already, no need to force it.

Also I don't see an SC in the list at all, have I missed it or is there an assumption that you get to upgrade one Bloodlord into a Warlord for free like you do in Black Legion.

The WE Zerkers differ from BL Zerkers in that BL gets a FF5+ and WE gets an FF6+, and a 15cm shooting attack. This makes them as good in FF as basic IG (6+ with 4+armor vs 5+ with no armor is the same kill rate for each). I'd much rather see them the same as BL Zerkers and the Army list give them options to add shooty units to the basic formations.

I agree on dropping the 8 rule for tanks and such, also there should be a 4 stand formation of Zerkers like the Forlorn Hope.

And get rid of the better CC values on the Tanks, sure it seems fluffy, but even World Eaters use their big guns when they have them, just because you're dedicated to Khorne doesn't automatically mean you act like a Bloodletter ^^
Author:  Dobbsy [ Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  World Eater list
You make some very good points Scarik - particularly on the tank CC values. There's a free Warlord upgrade to SC at the bottom of the list btw.

OK so we should take a page out of the 1K Sons book for numbers organisation then?

Tim- if we adjust unit sizes for things could we not reduce the numbers of cannon to 4 instead of removing them? They are afterall Cannons of Khorne not hellfires (ok they are hellfires in all but name...)and they seem fluffy to a Khorne army. I always liked the idea of Khornate engines of war. The MW attack could be useful to someone not wanting to take Titans. Maybe reduce their range somewhat to make them more Khorne-like and in your face? Not sure if this will make them too vulnerable of course...
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