2 x AP4+/AT4+ (perhabs with AA4+) as i stated above
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| Obliterators http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=12721 |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Fri May 30, 2008 12:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Obliterators |
So that it isn't fogrotteni copy paste from here: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....5;st=60 Epic is based on Wh40k. Dark Reapers and Necron Heavy Destroyers have merged their shots to form less but more powerful shots. Dark Reapers should have 5 x AP6+ but have 2 x AP5+ in Epic. Heavy Destroyers should have 3 x AT5+ but have 1 x AT4+ in Epic. Curiously i came up with the same stats in my WeaponsTransferSystem. You will note that the Rulebook shows Infantry always as 5 models on a base and Mounted Infantry as 3 models on a base. The reason for this is because this is the usual minimum, maximum or half strength of a given squad in Wh40k. Dark Reapers are 3-5 models per unit in Wh40k. Heavy Destroyers are 1-3 models per unit in Wh40k. Obliterators are 1-3 models per unit in Wh40k. All are Infantry so must have at least 3 models per unit in Epic. And the already established Dark Reapers merge their multiple shots to less but more powerful shots. The Heavy Destroyers mimic this too. Obliterators can morph almost anything shooty. So they will use the best shot available for any given target. Weapons which have a shooting attack in Epic and Obliterators are able to morph are: Lascannons (45cm AT5+), Multi-meltas (15cm MW5+) and Plasmacannons (30cm AP4+/AT4+ slow-firing). Ideally Obliterators should choose which of these 3 weapons they will fire. Instead this is abstracted to a 45cm AP5+/AT5+/AA5+ shot per model on the base (= 3, the maximum number of Obliterators in a squad in Wh40k). Well...i think this is the wrong value. A unit of Obliterators in Epic should have a single 30cm AP4+/AT4+/AA4+ shot. The profile should be identical to Chaos Terminators but with FF2+ and Fearless. An Invulnerable Save isn't needed and isn't justified. This proposal is based firstly on precedence in already existing and proofed unit types and secondly on the units stats, abilities and defining features in Wh40k. So to post the new profile: Obliterators Type, Armour, CC, FF Infantry, 4+, 3+, 2+ Weapon, Range, Firepower, Notes Body Weapons, 30cm, AP4+/AT4+/AA4+, - Power Weapons, (base contact), Assault Weapons, Macro Weapon Extra Attacks (+1) Notes: Fearless, Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour, Teleport Answer form Lord Inquisitor: A reasonable set of rules. I agree with your reasoning, but I've some comments: - While a combined shot is feasable, I don't see any need to change it from the current 3x shots. It's a rare unit. Destroyers and Dark Reapers are more common and the streamlining is needed there, but then again a Leman Russ has each weapon with it's own shot. - I just flat-out don't think they should be an AA unit. Aside from anything else, energy weapons don't typically get used for flack. - I think giving them a MW extra attack suddenly just makes them better than Termiantors at everything. I was thinking MW but no extra attack. - The invulnerable save is there for several reasons I can think of. 1) Obliterators are tougher than Terminators. While they've gone down to T4 in 40K, they're still 2 wounds each (yes, I know 3 obliterators is roughly equal to 5 Terminators in wounds, but nevertheless, they should be tougher). 2) They're at least partially daemonic, and most daemonic units in Epic have the invulnerable save. The Defiler, for example. I will post my revised stats for them shortly, in a different thread. In the meantime, we need a patch that uses the existing stats if at all possible for the tournie mods. |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Fri May 30, 2008 12:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Obliterators |
- Yes Obliterators are a rare unit...so is the Hydra and the Hunter but they don't bristle with shots as the Obliterators do. And a LemanRuss isn't infantry. Light/Armoured Vehicles always get at least one shot per weapon. Infantry is another matter as can clearly be seen with the Eldar Dark Reapers and Ork Nobz where all individual models in the unit are armed with a weapon which as theoretically a shot oni ts own but is abstracted to lesser but more powerful shots. At most Obliterators should get 2 shots (with my stats above) but never three. - Yes. AA isn't really justified. But then the BlackLegion needs some new dedicated AA-unit (AA-Defiler) or better Interceptors. - Err..."partially" damonic is the keyword here. Obliterators aren't Daemons. So they shouldn't get an Invulnerable Save. A maximum of 3 in a unit with 2 wounds each and same armour as Terminators justifies 4+RA in Epic..but NOT an Invulnerable Save. Weapons with high strength will kill them as easy as any other Terminator regardless that they have 2 Wounds each. A Powerfist or Melta (both at least double the strength ath the Obliterators Toughness, which is the qualification for Instand-Kill) equipped model will kill one Obliterator with each unsaved hit. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Fri May 30, 2008 12:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Obliterators |
I believe Obliterators should indeed have 3 shots per base. 3 Obliterators == 3 Heavy Weapons == 3 shots. The nature of those shots is debatable of course. |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Fri May 30, 2008 1:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Obliterators |
Have you read my first comment about this? 5 Ork Nobz = 5 Big Shootas = 5 shots? 5 Dark Reapers = 5 Reaper Missile Launchers = 5 shots? Both have only 2 shots in Epic. But more powerful ones than their weapons might suggest. Both have a Squad strength of 3-5 (3-10 for Nobz)models. Obliterators have only a Squad strength of 1-3 models. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Fri May 30, 2008 11:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Obliterators |
Hmm, not a terrible point... I could potentially see them dropping as low as two shots, but the to-hit stat would need to get better. |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Fri May 30, 2008 11:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Obliterators |
2 x AP4+/AT4+ (perhabs with AA4+) as i stated above
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| Author: | zombocom [ Fri May 30, 2008 3:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Obliterators |
Lose the AA altogether. I fail to see why they have it in the first place. The chaos list needs AA, sure, but obliterators aren't where it should be. |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Fri May 30, 2008 3:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Obliterators |
Yes. With htis Obliterators willbecome a style choice. Which is good. Do i take Havocs which have greater number and shots but are more fragile and their shots aren't as powerful? Or do i take Obliterators which are tougher and have more powerful but fewer shots, come in fewer number but can teleport together with Terminators? For AA...take a AA-Defiler. The novel "Dark Apostel" even mentions six-legged Daemon Engines which shoot at incoming aircrafts
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