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Black Legion rules review

 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:58 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ May 23 2008,20:49)
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Well, at the simplest level, 1 heavy weapon = 1 shot. A unit of three obliterators should have three shots. Three obliterators that morph three lascannon should get three AT5+ shots... which is exactly what they have.

Yes, but then the Dark Reapers who all have some kind of heavy weapon should have more than just 2x AP5+, don't you think ?

It's not just "one heavy weapon = one shot" in Epic, in fact. Obliterators have the "same" weapons firing at once. These weapons have a single profile, so they could follow the same way as Dark Reapers. Two shots would be already good enough in that point of view.


About the AA Defiler, honestly the idea is quite appealing to me. I'm waiting to know more about it. :D






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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 9:08 pm 
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Well, the Dark Reapers have pretty weak heavy weapons. 5xAP6+ seems somewhat unworkable for a single unit. But Dark Reapers are rather the exception to the rule. Virtually every unit has a shot for each heavy weapon mounted. 3 obliterators = 3 shots makes perfect sense, we need a very good reason to abstract it to anything other than that. And anyway, Obliterators should be absurdly shooty.


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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 9:46 pm 
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I'd like to point out that Obliterator AA sucks when you put them with Chosen.  It's pitifully simple to shut it down, even easier than SM Hunters.  The Chosen only have 30cm range, so it only takes a couple BMs to cut the Obliterators' AA from 45cm to 30cm, which is less than half the area.  30cm AA is nothing - just as any Ork player.

It's nasty if you don't deal with it, but it's nothing if you do and it's easy.  Heck, throwing 6-8 dice for Teleport errors might do the job without the opponent having to do a thing.

A 10 point increase might be in order, but that's not going to solve the actual issue - even with 10 points more they're still a "no-brainer" for Chaos Terminators.


I don't think this is true.  I'd only put them at about 20-25 points more than a Chosen unit.  They have about 40% more total offense, are just a bit tougher, and have the AA compared to Chosen.  That's a 30-35% point markup, tops.


100 points to add them to chosen, 75 elsewhere, with 2 shots rather than 3.

How do you justify this?

I wouldn't consider them for 100 points, even with 3 shots.  That's +50% to cost compared to a Chosen.  You'd get 3 Chosen versus 2 Obliterators.  That's the same ranged firepower, more FF and more toughness for the Chosen, not to mention about 5x the CC ability, which is oh-so-effective with the Teleport.  The Chosen would outperform them by a huge margin, regardless of AA or Fearless.

They were playtested for a long time with 3 shots at 100 points each and it got to the point no one took them because they were clearly lousy.

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 11:57 pm 
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Who says an obliterator unit is 3 obliterators? Being epic infantry they could be anywhere between 3 and 7 on a base.

The number of models on a base is flexible, and shouldn't be used to determine the number of shots!

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 12:00 am 
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(nealhunt @ May 23 2008,21:46)
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I wouldn't consider them for 100 points, even with 3 shots.  That's +50% to cost compared to a Chosen.  You'd get 3 Chosen versus 2 Obliterators.  That's the same ranged firepower, more FF and more toughness for the Chosen, not to mention about 5x the CC ability, which is oh-so-effective with the Teleport.  The Chosen would outperform them by a huge margin, regardless of AA or Fearless.


You're not factoring in the fact that they are Fearless, which is worth a significant number of points on its own on such a difficult to kill unit.

The ranged firepower of the obliterators is better in your example, because they have AA, and better AT. A point of AT improvement is worth more than losing a point of AP. The obliterators are more survivable due to being fearless with an invulnerable save, and not that much worse in a firefight; 1.66 hits average instead of 2 hits.

I'd take 2 Obliterators over 3 chosen any day.





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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 12:15 am 
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(nealhunt @ May 23 2008,21:46)
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I'd like to point out that Obliterator AA sucks when you put them with Chosen. ?It's pitifully simple to shut it down, even easier than SM Hunters. ?The Chosen only have 30cm range, so it only takes a couple BMs to cut the Obliterators' AA from 45cm to 30cm, which is less than half the area. ?30cm AA is nothing - just as any Ork player.

It's nasty if you don't deal with it, but it's nothing if you do and it's easy. ?Heck, throwing 6-8 dice for Teleport errors might do the job without the opponent having to do a thing.

I understand what you are saying here, but you get several benefits as well, which IMHO more than outweigh the disadvantages you note
- Teleporting the formation gets round the movement issue;
- 1-2 Oblits significantly boosts the offensive capabilities of the Chosen
- Daemons boost the numbers again (and provide a "meat shield")
- BL Strategy rating gives them a good chance of getting to move first against all but Marines and possibly Eldar; making the "boosted" Chosen a very good alpha-strike formation
- Fearless makes the formation hard to kill if things do go wrong
- And while the AA range is dropped through BMs, it is really only needed to cover the actual formation so that is less of an issue (to the Oblits).

Furthermore, when placed in a "slow moving" Retinue, doubled forwards (or garrisoned forwards) this gives a 3' diameter AA umbrella pretty much dead centre in the table - two of them can cover most / all of the table (as I know to my cost :p ). Add Daemons etc and it is very hard to shift or suppress.

However, rather than re-stating everything ad-nauseum, are there any alternatives here? What are the parameters that we are working under - are we looking for a short term solution or perhaps trying for a long term one?

In a wider context, IIRC one of the intentions was that an army list was defined as much by it's weaknesses as by its strengths. so AMTL deliberately has limited AA capacity; Eldar are Soap bubble with slege-hammers etc. So what are the design weaknesses that have been built into in the Chaos lists?





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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 7:17 am 
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(Ginger @ May 24 2008,00:15)
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In a wider context, IIRC one of the intentions was that an army list was defined as much by it's weaknesses as by its strengths. so AMTL deliberately has limited AA capacity; Eldar are Soap bubble with slege-hammers etc. So what are the design weaknesses that have been built into in the Chaos lists?

Lack of shooting ability
Inabilty to deal with WEs
Low activation count
Poor AA

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 10:45 am 
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(zombocom @ May 24 2008,00:57)
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Who says an obliterator unit is 3 obliterators? Being epic infantry they could be anywhere between 3 and 7 on a base.

The number of models on a base is flexible, and shouldn't be used to determine the number of shots!

In Wh40k a unit of Obliterators consist of 1-3 Obliterators only.
And sorry i really can't see 21 individual Obliterators for a retinue of a Chaos lord. Thats clearly to much for such a rare unit type.

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 4:22 pm 
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As for the Chaos Hunter, I'm not too keen on it.


No, it woudln't fly with the Studio either.

Assuming that we don't retcon the Chaos Hunter into the current background, after the Chaos Legions fled to the Eye of Terror and splintered, Abaddon must have had to face the fact that certain elements necessary to the function of the Legion were becoming scarce. While he obviously still retained the use of aircraft, he would have needed to develop a new ground-flack system.

PM sent. :)

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 4:31 pm 
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(Steve54 @ May 24 2008,07:17)
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Poor AA

And yet, in obliterators, they have some of the best AA in the game. Hmmm...

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 4:36 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ May 24 2008,10:45)
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(zombocom @ May 24 2008,00:57)
QUOTE
Who says an obliterator unit is 3 obliterators? Being epic infantry they could be anywhere between 3 and 7 on a base.

The number of models on a base is flexible, and shouldn't be used to determine the number of shots!

In Wh40k a unit of Obliterators consist of 1-3 Obliterators only.

Epic isn't 40k.

Infantry in epic have abstracted stats to represent multiple individuals, of varying number. There's nothing to say that one weapon = one shot, as proven by the Dark Reaper example.

Another example is Necron Heavy Destroyers, which despite being Mounted Infantry who each have a heavy weapon, have been given a single shot for balance reasons. It's fine that way.





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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 2:45 am 
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Epic is based on Wh40k.

Dark Reapers and Necron Heavy Destroyers have merged their shots to form less but more powerful shots.

Dark Reapers should have 5 x AP6+ but have 2 x AP5+ in Epic.
Heavy Destroyers should have 3 x AT5+ but have 1 x AT4+ in Epic.

Curiously i came up with the same stats in my WeaponsTransferSystem.

You will note that the Rulebook shows Infantry always as 5 models on a base and  Mounted Infantry as 3 models on a base. The reason for this is because this is the usual minimum, maximum or half strength of a given squad in Wh40k.
Dark Reapers are 3-5 models per unit in Wh40k.
Heavy Destroyers are 1-3 models per unit in Wh40k.
Obliterators are 1-3 models per unit in Wh40k.

All are Infantry so must have at least 3 models per unit in Epic.
And the already established Dark Reapers merge their multiple shots to less but more powerful shots. The Heavy Destroyers mimic this too.

Obliterators can morph almost anything shooty. So they will use the best shot available for any given target. Weapons which have a shooting attack in Epic and Obliterators are able to morph are: Lascannons (45cm AT5+), Multi-meltas (15cm MW5+) and Plasmacannons (30cm AP4+/AT4+ slow-firing).
Ideally Obliterators should choose which of these 3 weapons they will fire. Instead this is abstracted to a 45cm AP5+/AT5+/AA5+ shot per model on the base (= 3, the maximum number of Obliterators in a squad in Wh40k).
Well...i think this is the wrong value.

A unit of Obliterators in Epic should have a single 30cm AP4+/AT4+/AA4+ shot.
The profile should be identical to Chaos Terminators but with FF2+ and Fearless.
An Invulnerable Save isn't needed and isn't justified.

This proposal is based firstly on precedence in already existing and proofed unit types and secondly on the units stats, abilities and defining features in Wh40k.

So to post the new profile:

Obliterators
Type, Armour, CC, FF
Infantry, 4+, 3+, 2+

Weapon, Range, Firepower, Notes
Body Weapons, 30cm, AP4+/AT4+/AA4+, -
Power Weapons, (base contact), Assault Weapons, Macro Weapon Extra Attacks (+1)

Notes: Fearless, Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour, Teleport





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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 3:44 am 
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A reasonable set of rules. I agree with your reasoning, but I've some comments:

- While a combined shot is feasable, I don't see any need to change it from the current 3x shots. It's a rare unit. Destroyers and Dark Reapers are more common and the streamlining is needed there, but then again a Leman Russ has each weapon with it's own shot.

- I just flat-out don't think they should be an AA unit. Aside from anything else, energy weapons don't typically get used for flack.

- I think giving them a MW extra attack suddenly just makes them better than Termiantors at everything. I was thinking MW but no extra attack.

- The invulnerable save is there for several reasons I can think of. 1) Obliterators are tougher than Terminators. While they've gone down to T4 in 40K, they're still 2 wounds each (yes, I know 3 obliterators is roughly equal to 5 Terminators in wounds, but nevertheless, they should be tougher). 2) They're at least partially daemonic, and most daemonic units in Epic have the invulnerable save. The Defiler, for example.

I will post my revised stats for them shortly, in a different thread. In the meantime, we need a patch that uses the existing stats if at all possible for the tournie mods.


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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 3:50 am 
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Ok. I will answer on this posting in your next thread, But now i will go and catch some sleep ;)

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:17 am 
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Okay. I was planning to stick to working on the tournament mods, but it looks like it might be worth showing what I want for the long term so people don't get too hung up on the temporary tournament mods.

I'm off to bed now myself so you must be up pretty late if you're in Germany...  :)






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