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Black Legion rules review
Ginger
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:23 pm 
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Regarding the Obliterators, I played a Marine drop list against Steve54's list in a tournament last year (that I have copied here) and the Obliterators effectively shut down the air game completely throughout the game. Note, that he did not restrict them to just the Chosen

The point being that, unlike other ground AA units, being infantry means that they are very hard to target in an all infantry formation, and their armour value makes them all-but invulnerable if you do manage to get a hit. Being embedded in the infantry formation means they virtually never get suppressed either. So if you try to air assault the formation, or anything nearby, you run into this beast - and I did in spades, losing two THawks and a Landing Craft to them; so yes I do feel they are overpowered!

As to comparisons with other units, perhaps you should refer to this thread (before it gets moved!)

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Chroma
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:31 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ May 23 2008,03:19)
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Personally, I really don't think anyone would even notice the ancient enemies rule being missing. There really isn't that much difference between a Tzeentch formation and a Nurgle formation, is there?

The "Hatred" rule only really comes into play in the Lost and the Damned list since the Factions of your Covens limits what you can take as support formations.

In the Black Legion list, the only thing "mechanical" that Factions do is limit the type of Cult Marine you can add to a Retinue and what weapon your Champion of Chaos carries, everything else is just painting scheme.




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zombocom
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:21 pm 
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Chroma: Doesn't it also limit what daemon types can be summoned?

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Chroma
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:57 pm 
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(zombocom @ May 23 2008,16:21)
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Chroma: Doesn't it also limit what daemon types can be summoned?

*laugh*  I suppose it does...

I so rarely spend points on Daemons in a Black Legion list, I completely overlooked that!   :D

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:59 pm 
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The thing about obliterators is that they are slow and cannot be transported. So for any formation except Chosen (that can teleport) and garrisoning formations, they're going to slow the formation down. That's reasonably internally balancing - you are going to have to sacrifice mobility to take flack.

The other thing is that you can take up to three units. If we remove the option from chosen, what I would do would be to take a garrison formation or two and dump three oblits in each and try and use these as a flack umbrella.

Just throwing this out as an idea - what if they were limited to a maximum of one or two per formation?
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zombocom
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:11 pm 
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Again, that's just papering over the cracks. The problem isn't where obliterators go, the problem is that they are too good and too cheap. Solve the problem at the source rather than adding more limitations.

In my experience chaos players seem to take some formations without transport anyway, just so they can garrison.

Fluffwise, I see no reason obliterators shouldn't join up with chosen. If you take away that option you are essentially taking away teleport from them anyway. I'd much rather see them toned down and correctly pointed rather than simply banned from certain formations.

Chaos should have a lot of flexibility with regards to formations sizes and upgrades, but they need to be ballanced and costed right.




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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:23 pm 
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The issue is that they are quite simply worth more to different formations.

Okay, let's say I up the points to 100 points each. What'll happen? People will still take 1-2 per chosen first and be unlikely to put them on any other formations.

I'm not sure I'm desperately happy with the obliterator stats or role within the army list, but that's for a full review. I'm almost thinking they could be a seperate formation of their own potentially.

A 10 point increase might be in order, but that's not going to solve the actual issue - even with 10 points more they're still a "no-brainer" for Chaos Terminators.

As for them being infantry, I don't really see why that has anything to do with whether they're suppressed or not. A formation with obliterators is fairly static - fine if you're garrisoning anyway - but there are going to be a limited number that can be taken before the whole army becomes prohibitively immobile. I've not heard any complaints about Tank Companies being able to hide Hydra in amoungst them. Then again, guard can only attach one flack unit to a formation, not three.

Ginger, you must have had some seriously bad luck to lose 2 Thunderhawks and a Landing Craft to 4 Oblits!
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:35 pm 
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Well... 4 Obliterators dish out 12 5+AA attacks!
It's only one unit of (in Wh40k terms) 3 individual Obileterators.
Even Eldar Dark Reapers, of which all Dark Reapers in the unit (3-5 individuums) are armed with a heavy weapon has only 2 shots.

I strongly recommend downgrading the Obliterators to 2 shots.

The morph ability and power of their weapons is already in their formidable FF value and that they have a 5+ attack to affect all possible units.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:37 pm 
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If you don't want to change the costs then drop the stats! Reduce FF to 3+ and drop one of the shots.

I don't see how banning them from chosen solves anything.

Hell, if you're that worried about them being better in chosen than elsewhere, why not make them cost more for chosen?

100 points to add them to chosen, 75 elsewhere, with 2 shots rather than 3.

Or lose fearless....




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Chroma
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:41 pm 
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(zombocom @ May 23 2008,18:37)
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Hell, if you're that worried about them being better in chosen than elsewhere, why not make them cost more for chosen?

I really like this idea; there's no reason for things to be the same points in different formations.

For example, with Chosen/Chaos Terminators, the Oblits have the option to use their teleport ability, so they should be "worth more" in that formation than in a regular Retinue.

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Magarch
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:45 pm 
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'bout Obliterators ;

- FF 3+ is enough. 2+ is just crazy.
- Remove their AA once and for all. Obliterators sniping aircraft is just plain stupid for background.
- Two shots are enough ; they already have a longer range and a better AT shot, after all.
- Make their CC attacks MW (but without EA) to match their 40k counterpart.
- 75 points each unit for that is reasonnable, and not cheated like now.
- They have their place in the Chosen / Chaos Terminators formations. In fact, I would just allow them as upgrade for this formation only ; "normal" Chaos formations have already a lot of upgrades.
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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 7:23 pm 
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Yes, they could be given two different points values. But - and I know many of you will not appreciate this as a serious consideration to game balance - it is going to be messy, confusing and difficult to write as the army list. It is a possibility nonetheless, but I find that rather unappealing.

The problem is that 3x shots is appropriate for the Obliterators. The only real complaint seems to be the 3x AA shots.

Magarch, I agree about most of your points, but these are not for the current minimal tournament changes. Removing the AA, for example, would leave a gap in the list and force players to take aircraft. I think if you take away their AA, 3 shots is okay. Yes, I think making their CC attacks MW would be sensible, but would certainly require playtesting. As for FF, I'd be inclined to give them two shots at FF4+ rather than one at FF2+.
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Magarch
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 7:43 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ May 23 2008,19:23)
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Magarch, I agree about most of your points, but these are not for the current minimal tournament changes. Removing the AA, for example, would leave a gap in the list and force players to take aircraft. I think if you take away their AA, 3 shots is okay. Yes, I think making their CC attacks MW would be sensible, but would certainly require playtesting. As for FF, I'd be inclined to give them two shots at FF4+ rather than one at FF2+.

I know, Lord Inquisitor. In fact, I like your review list and I'm aware that it will take a lot of time. :;):

Profiles are always difficult to make and most of the time, people just want to say their point of view is the best. It will be hard, but it's good to see that this topic is moving at last.
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Ginger
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 7:48 pm 
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While I am noted for my unlucky dice rolls, in this case, the loss of the transports was down to the number of shots that hit. From memory, all suffered 3-4 hits, and the LC went critical as it flew back to pick up some troops. :(

However, I do think Magarch has got it about right - rather drop the stats (and especially the AA :p ) than raise the unit cost in this particular instance (although slightly on the high side, 100 points for any unit is OTT IMHO and still does not really fix the issues here).

Could you explain further why the Obliterators warrant 3x shots each. Also what are your views about having a Chaos variant of the Hunter?

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:49 pm 
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(Ginger @ May 23 2008,14:48)
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Could you explain further why the Obliterators warrant 3x shots each. Also what are your views about having a Chaos variant of the Hunter?

Well, at the simplest level, 1 heavy weapon = 1 shot. A unit of three obliterators should have three shots. Three obliterators that morph three lascannon should get three AT5+ shots... which is exactly what they have.

As for the Chaos Hunter, I'm not too keen on it.
  • It seems somewhat uninspired. Yes, most of the Chaos vehicles are just loyalist marine vehicles with spikes on them, but even so it would be nice to have something that differentiates the Chaos forces. The obliterators did this nicely - just that the obliterators have additional issues associated with fitting them in this role.
  • The background for the Hunter states that it is younger than the Whirlwind, ergo the Chaos Legions shouldn't have access to them.
  • It doesn't seem to fit the "feel" of the list. Sophisticated, versatile vehicles like the whirlwind, razorback or Crusader are for the loyalists. Chaos vehicles are solid and brutal - vindicators and defilers. The hunter, with it's fancy targetting systems doesn't feel right - the chaos forces should have something that smashes aircraft out of the sky with bolts of energy or hails of shots.
Assuming that we don't retcon the Chaos Hunter into the current background, after the Chaos Legions fled to the Eye of Terror and splintered, Abaddon must have had to face the fact that certain elements necessary to the function of the Legion were becoming scarce. While he obviously still retained the use of aircraft, he would have needed to develop a new ground-flack system.
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